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[Music]

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you're in the para cast the gold

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standard of paranormal radio yes you're

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in the para cast I'm Jean Steinberg my

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co-host is Chris O'Brien and we have a

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very special guest and before we

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introduce our guest let me tell you a

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story on November 22nd of 2009 we

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featured James carrion our guest tonight

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he was at the time international

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director of MUFON it was a pleasant

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conversation we had a great time I hope

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he did even record a promo for the

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program so when I was a pleasant show we

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talked about his work about new fine

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everything else then on January 23rd of

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2011 almost 14 months to the day later

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we featured a different person handling

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the chores of director of MUFON who was

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Clifford Clift okay we have pleasant

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time pleasant discussion we got along

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well he also recorded by the way a

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promotional announcement for the para

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cast you know we ask that courtesy of

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our guest sometimes okay now all the hot

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has happen a lot happened in those 14

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months and a lot has happened since that

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show was broadcast so before we go on

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not too many weeks James after you

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appeared on the para cast you step down

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as international director of MUFON so

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what was going on why did you make that

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decision

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a ways back actually had informed the

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board at our 2009 symposium that I was

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considering stepping down since my

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three-year term was up I told him I

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would stay on for as long as the vast

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project was running but I would be

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officially relinquish in the position in

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2010 so this was this was plan way

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advance as far as the peaceful

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transition of power but what ended up

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happening was a sort of earth

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I resigned before my term was up I was

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gonna relinquish my term relinquish this

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position in 2010 and what happened was

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there were some events that occurred

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with the move on that sort of forced me

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to resign before my term was up okay

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therein lies a tale can you tell us

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about those events what happened was in

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January 2010 the best contract was

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coming to an end and two of the board

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members

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Clifford Cliff who was gonna take over

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his international director and who had

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actually been announces of the National

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Director and Johar's am secretly sent a

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letter to bass trying to portray me as

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the reason why the project was failing

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and offering transparency to bass and

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accountability and they did this behind

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my back while I was still an acting

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international director so they entered

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into secret communication and once I

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found out that letter was sent it was

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sent to me by a third party then I

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turned around and off of my media the

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resignation from the board and the move

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on I think our listeners for those who

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haven't follow the by play this contract

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which has become a big issue between

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MUFON and outside investor what was that

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about the contract with bass was

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basically so contracting MUFON for UFO

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investigative services but also for

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access to MUFON

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historical case files as well as their

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the current cases that were being

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entered into our website so basically

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we're looking for MUFON to send

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investigators out of the field for high

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priority cases especially where there

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was physical evidence involved and to

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collect that evidence and then to share

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that evidence with that okay now who

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runs this organization that you

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contracted with well bass stands for

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Bigelow Aerospace advanced Space Studies

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so this is a sort of subsidiary of

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Bigelow Aerospace now Robert Bigelow by

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the way he became very wealthy because

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he owned this hotel chain right

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that's correct and then he branched out

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later on into to the aerospace industry

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okay so they contracted with you how

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much did this investment entail well

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roughly it was the contact sort of

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floating around in there right now so I

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think everybody pretty much know that

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the sums are but for your listeners you

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haven't seen it it was roughly around

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fifty six thousand dollars a month

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that's not bad now in looking at MUFON

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how were your finances up to the point

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that you get this fifty six thousand

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dollar offer per month how are you doing

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well move on there's pretty much always

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operated on on a slim budget with the

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monies coming in from membership and

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sort of merchandise sales just probably

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expenses the operational expenses of

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salaries and getting the MUFON journal

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out there were really never any

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substantial money left over to actually

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do research or to do investigations so

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we're you know MUFON has always been

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that way in the last 40 years they

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operating on very slim budget I think

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it's because of this recession that hit

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everybody hard merchandise and

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membership so basically the membership

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fees pay to print the magazine to

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finance I guess an office but not really

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to conduct field investigations so what

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do you do just have volunteers do it all

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the investigation was volunteer base or

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be volunteers with their own time and

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their own money we go out and

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investigate these UFO cases okay so this

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must have been a big boon suddenly you

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have this guy with the big deep pockets

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and he's giving you fifty six thousand

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dollars a month what did he require in

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exchange for that money well I think

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that became one of the sticking points

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of the contract because the contract

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specifically said it was for who funds

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investigative services and access to our

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files but in terms of what those

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deliverables were it was vague and sort

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of open-ended

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but at the same time it was a straight

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forward purchase agreement

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and so like I turn early on the

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negotiating the contract was what

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happens if we don't spend fifty six

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thousand dollars in a month and I pose

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that question directly to mr. Bigelow

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and he said well it's a straightforward

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purchase contract the money belongs to

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move on okay so they're getting all your

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case files now is this information that

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is already public or is there

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confidential information that was

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involved in this agreement

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well there was confidential information

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so there were two concerns one was

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historical Case Files where there was

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witness information and so we got to be

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careful about what which Case Files we

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could release too fast the second was

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the current Case Files when somebody

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before the current UFO sighting so we

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get there as we sort of told ourselves

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legally by requiring the witness to

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elect whether or not they were one to

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release information to third parties in

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this case being bats all right now is

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this one of the things that was the

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straw that broke the camel's back that

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made you want to resign what were they

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doing behind your back well what

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happened was our total renewal periods

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built into the contract so after five

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months of performing these services the

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contract was under revision on the

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renewal and in June of 2009 but the

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provisions in the contract stated dead

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lady the continually contract that the

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same contract price per month they could

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increase funding or they could terminate

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the contract and they elected to do a

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fourth option which was not a new and in

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legal terms in the contract itself and

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they decided to reduce the contract

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monthly amount in half okay why because

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at that point

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MUFON had accumulated I think was

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somewhere around $150,000 in the bank

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project money that we had not spent and

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in mr. Bigelow said well we think we

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should be spending that money on

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services that directly benefit us so

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basically there was no provision in that

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he thought there was no provision in the

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contract for from MUFON do they have a

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profit from the contract okay so

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basically you're getting this money

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every month to perform investigations

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and it's going in the bank

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while we were paying we were paying for

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whatever operational expenses we needed

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to for the high priority cases for that

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month so it was a natural amount of

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money we were only gonna feel it

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investigators for those cases that were

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worth it it wasn't like we were trying

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to scam per se we were doing as much as

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we could based on the caseload that was

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coming in it was just a lot of money

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that we didn't expect you could spend

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the whole amount in single mom

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okay we'll get into more of this in a

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moment James carry on joining us former

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international director of the mutual UFO

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network and neighbors if you have a

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question or a comment about the parent

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cast write us news at the Peres cast

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comm that's news at the Peres cast comm

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we read every letter we get the co-host

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is Chris O'Brien on gene Steinberg

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[Music]

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don't complain about your cable bill

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going up and up and up do something

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grab a pencil and jot down this special

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tell you it's homemade flavor is

278
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279
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we've brought you the best food on the

280
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281
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282
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are super easy to fix

283
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284
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285
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special it's a lot of food for less than

286
00:12:32,079 --> 00:12:29,810
a dollar a serving it includes the new

287
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288
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289
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290
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291
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292
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293
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294
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297
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298
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300
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302
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303
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315
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316
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325
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calm today the gcn radio network

326
00:14:06,250 --> 00:14:03,920
providing the world with hard-hitting

327
00:14:14,050 --> 00:14:06,260
talk radio G

328
00:14:15,910 --> 00:14:14,060
and great talk-radio starts here we want

329
00:14:18,010 --> 00:14:15,920
to hear from you if you have a comment

330
00:14:21,220 --> 00:14:18,020
or question about the pair cast send it

331
00:14:24,730 --> 00:14:21,230
to news at Lapera cast calm

332
00:14:26,350 --> 00:14:24,740
that's news at the para cast calm and

333
00:14:29,050 --> 00:14:26,360
don't forget to visit our famous pair

334
00:14:31,690 --> 00:14:29,060
cast community forums at forum dot the

335
00:14:38,140 --> 00:14:31,700
para cast comm get in on all the action

336
00:14:40,690 --> 00:14:38,150
at forum dot the para cast calm we

337
00:14:43,150 --> 00:14:40,700
return part two james carrion is our

338
00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:43,160
guest former international director of

339
00:14:47,980 --> 00:14:46,010
the mutual UFO network MUFON the co-host

340
00:14:50,650 --> 00:14:47,990
is Chris O'Brien I'm gene Steinberg

341
00:14:53,140 --> 00:14:50,660
you're in the para cast and we're

342
00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:53,150
looking at this agreement from Robert

343
00:14:59,230 --> 00:14:56,090
Bigelow to fund their investigations so

344
00:15:01,300 --> 00:14:59,240
we basically forced to spend fifty six

345
00:15:04,570 --> 00:15:01,310
thousand dollars a month no matter what

346
00:15:06,310 --> 00:15:04,580
or he didn't think in terms of this

347
00:15:08,050 --> 00:15:06,320
being a long-term investment that maybe

348
00:15:09,940 --> 00:15:08,060
you don't need it this month but six

349
00:15:12,990 --> 00:15:09,950
months down the pike there's a landing

350
00:15:16,870 --> 00:15:13,000
you got a rush out people well I

351
00:15:19,390 --> 00:15:16,880
attention because early negotiations

352
00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:19,400
were bass we wanted clarification on

353
00:15:24,730 --> 00:15:23,090
these leftover monies so legally we did

354
00:15:26,290 --> 00:15:24,740
not have to spend the money that left

355
00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:26,300
over at the end of the month on project

356
00:15:30,850 --> 00:15:27,890
expenses that that wasn't more funds

357
00:15:32,770 --> 00:15:30,860
money but the way to mr. Bigelow saw it

358
00:15:33,910 --> 00:15:32,780
though was well we don't want you

359
00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:33,920
accumulating that money in the bank

360
00:15:37,030 --> 00:15:35,330
that's none of the spirit of our

361
00:15:39,100 --> 00:15:37,040
agreement whatever that means spirit of

362
00:15:40,630 --> 00:15:39,110
the agreement and he said okay we're

363
00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:40,640
just gonna reduce the what we're gonna

364
00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:42,650
what we're gonna send you in half which

365
00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:44,450
was fine because keep in mind we had

366
00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:46,010
three hundred fifty thousand dollars in

367
00:15:50,530 --> 00:15:47,930
the bag so they cut they cut the

368
00:15:52,180 --> 00:15:50,540
expected the the checks in half and it

369
00:15:54,490 --> 00:15:52,190
did meet our operational expenses each

370
00:15:56,800 --> 00:15:54,500
month the problem was that when October

371
00:15:59,020 --> 00:15:56,810
of 2009 rolled around and we were in our

372
00:16:02,380 --> 00:15:59,030
second renewal period at that point they

373
00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:02,390
decide not some checks all together and

374
00:16:06,490 --> 00:16:03,890
the project it in finished until

375
00:16:08,950 --> 00:16:06,500
February so all of the operational

376
00:16:10,990 --> 00:16:08,960
expenses and after October came from

377
00:16:13,030 --> 00:16:11,000
from the bank account it was like he's

378
00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:13,040
changing the game midstream I mean it

379
00:16:16,489 --> 00:16:14,850
doesn't sound like that was

380
00:16:18,469 --> 00:16:16,499
provision in the contract it's like

381
00:16:20,659 --> 00:16:18,479
isn't the contract null and void at that

382
00:16:22,549 --> 00:16:20,669
point that was my point of view and

383
00:16:24,679 --> 00:16:22,559
that's what I argued with before but I

384
00:16:28,039 --> 00:16:24,689
guess the MUFON Board of Directors they

385
00:16:29,569 --> 00:16:28,049
saw this as a unique relationship that

386
00:16:31,489 --> 00:16:29,579
they didn't want to place into jeopardy

387
00:16:34,009 --> 00:16:31,499
and they saw as a long-term funding

388
00:16:35,749 --> 00:16:34,019
source so they basically allowed mr.

389
00:16:38,509 --> 00:16:35,759
Berg for the road invalidate his own

390
00:16:40,609 --> 00:16:38,519
project well and I can see why or how

391
00:16:42,289 --> 00:16:40,619
that could be a real problem not only

392
00:16:44,509 --> 00:16:42,299
legally in terms of contractual

393
00:16:47,449 --> 00:16:44,519
agreements but in terms of kind of a

394
00:16:49,519 --> 00:16:47,459
micromanaging a situation that that

395
00:16:51,969 --> 00:16:49,529
suddenly is looming it's almost like

396
00:16:54,619 --> 00:16:51,979
Bigelow and bass then started dictating

397
00:16:56,569 --> 00:16:54,629
exactly how the whole process was gonna

398
00:16:59,029 --> 00:16:56,579
go down which was above and beyond the

399
00:17:01,999 --> 00:16:59,039
the actual languaging of the contract so

400
00:17:03,619 --> 00:17:02,009
so what did you do at that point well at

401
00:17:05,509 --> 00:17:03,629
that point I deferred to the board the

402
00:17:08,179 --> 00:17:05,519
majority decision the board was to go

403
00:17:11,869 --> 00:17:08,189
ahead and accept mr. billows terms so we

404
00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:11,879
received a reduction in funds half of

405
00:17:16,340 --> 00:17:14,250
the contractual price from June gellick

406
00:17:18,919 --> 00:17:16,350
Tober the problem was when I took I

407
00:17:20,509 --> 00:17:18,929
rolled around and they stopped sending

408
00:17:24,079 --> 00:17:20,519
checks all together

409
00:17:25,220 --> 00:17:24,089
that's when I I told the board and first

410
00:17:26,389 --> 00:17:25,230
of all I informed the board that I was

411
00:17:29,230 --> 00:17:26,399
going to step down as international

412
00:17:31,519 --> 00:17:29,240
director and second I handed over the

413
00:17:33,619 --> 00:17:31,529
renegotiation of the vast contract

414
00:17:36,019 --> 00:17:33,629
running future negotiations to one of

415
00:17:37,399 --> 00:17:36,029
the other board members to handle at

416
00:17:39,350 --> 00:17:37,409
that point I was pretty much done and

417
00:17:41,740 --> 00:17:39,360
disgusted with this relationship well

418
00:17:43,970 --> 00:17:41,750
that brings up the obvious question of

419
00:17:45,830 --> 00:17:43,980
what's it like for a nonprofit

420
00:17:48,019 --> 00:17:45,840
organization that that's been serving

421
00:17:50,930 --> 00:17:48,029
the public basically I mean the public

422
00:17:52,909 --> 00:17:50,940
is your is your market in terms of the

423
00:17:54,350 --> 00:17:52,919
information that you're collecting it

424
00:17:55,909 --> 00:17:54,360
sounds like you had to deal with

425
00:17:58,369 --> 00:17:55,919
somebody Horning in and dictating

426
00:18:00,470 --> 00:17:58,379
exactly how this entire relationship in

427
00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:00,480
the process which then rubs off on the

428
00:18:04,850 --> 00:18:03,450
MUFON you know a way of doing things it

429
00:18:07,279 --> 00:18:04,860
sounds like he was trying to pretty much

430
00:18:09,379 --> 00:18:07,289
muscle in and take over well it was

431
00:18:11,690 --> 00:18:09,389
interesting the way that came about

432
00:18:13,879 --> 00:18:11,700
because at the beginning in our initial

433
00:18:15,799 --> 00:18:13,889
negotiations mr. Bigelow specifically

434
00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:15,809
stated that he didn't want to see this

435
00:18:19,909 --> 00:18:18,330
contract is managing MUFON or having

436
00:18:21,889 --> 00:18:19,919
anything to say in the management it

437
00:18:24,769 --> 00:18:21,899
move on but that's exactly the way to

438
00:18:27,539 --> 00:18:24,779
ended up because by changing the terms

439
00:18:30,479 --> 00:18:27,549
and controlling the perda string

440
00:18:32,549 --> 00:18:30,489
and then getting the board to cave in to

441
00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:32,559
his demands it's exactly what happened

442
00:18:36,749 --> 00:18:34,330
the board forgot who they ordered their

443
00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:36,759
allegiance to it wasn't a for-profit

444
00:18:41,220 --> 00:18:39,369
corporation it's to the public that's

445
00:18:41,930 --> 00:18:41,230
what a non-profit exists for is to serve

446
00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:41,940
the public

447
00:18:48,989 --> 00:18:45,970
sounds like hostage-taking I think would

448
00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:48,999
be the clinical term for it well this is

449
00:18:53,460 --> 00:18:51,369
really unfortunate that once again we

450
00:18:55,470 --> 00:18:53,470
have you know deep pockets coming in

451
00:18:58,169 --> 00:18:55,480
throwing some money around and expecting

452
00:19:00,599 --> 00:18:58,179
to circumvent you know the way things

453
00:19:02,369 --> 00:19:00,609
have been done for X amount of years and

454
00:19:04,950 --> 00:19:02,379
then sort of instilling their own

455
00:19:07,859 --> 00:19:04,960
program their own agenda into the whole

456
00:19:09,869 --> 00:19:07,869
situation so this this was pretty much

457
00:19:11,549 --> 00:19:09,879
the last straw for you is what I'm

458
00:19:14,430 --> 00:19:11,559
hearing then well I can see the writing

459
00:19:16,099 --> 00:19:14,440
on the wall after Lejeune we knew all

460
00:19:18,869 --> 00:19:16,109
the things just weren't on the up-and-up

461
00:19:20,909 --> 00:19:18,879
and so I had informed the board well in

462
00:19:23,669 --> 00:19:20,919
advance I would be stepping down but I

463
00:19:26,970 --> 00:19:23,679
would stay on until the project was

464
00:19:28,739 --> 00:19:26,980
finished which is my plan I was going to

465
00:19:31,349 --> 00:19:28,749
relinquish the National Director

466
00:19:33,899 --> 00:19:31,359
position to to Clifford cliff and as of

467
00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:33,909
March 1st which was right around the

468
00:19:39,239 --> 00:19:36,369
time the contract was going to end but

469
00:19:41,999 --> 00:19:39,249
then this the negotiations happened in

470
00:19:43,169 --> 00:19:42,009
late January that caused my premature

471
00:19:45,479 --> 00:19:43,179
resignation

472
00:19:47,729 --> 00:19:45,489
I'm curious here why would they want to

473
00:19:50,340 --> 00:19:47,739
engage in these negotiations behind your

474
00:19:51,930 --> 00:19:50,350
back what was the endgame here well I

475
00:19:55,409 --> 00:19:51,940
think the end game for them was they

476
00:19:57,869 --> 00:19:55,419
what happened was that the bass auditors

477
00:20:01,019 --> 00:19:57,879
came in if the bass folks came in and

478
00:20:02,999 --> 00:20:01,029
said hey we hear rumors that project

479
00:20:05,580 --> 00:20:03,009
he's being embezzled or something's

480
00:20:08,789 --> 00:20:05,590
being mismanaged so we'd like a copy of

481
00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:08,799
the books and not only did Dan Harz and

482
00:20:14,700 --> 00:20:12,129
board member hand over the bass books in

483
00:20:17,279 --> 00:20:14,710
other words already to the project he

484
00:20:20,460 --> 00:20:17,289
handed over move funds operational books

485
00:20:22,889 --> 00:20:20,470
so he gave these auditors access to move

486
00:20:24,749 --> 00:20:22,899
funds accounting which they had no right

487
00:20:28,009 --> 00:20:24,759
to be looking at and they turned around

488
00:20:30,749 --> 00:20:28,019
and found all of these very ridiculous

489
00:20:32,909 --> 00:20:30,759
clerical errors for example a check was

490
00:20:35,399 --> 00:20:32,919
interred here with the wrong number this

491
00:20:37,739 --> 00:20:35,409
expense was mislabeled and they came

492
00:20:38,940 --> 00:20:37,749
back and they basically told MUFON we

493
00:20:42,900 --> 00:20:38,950
have

494
00:20:45,900 --> 00:20:42,910
funds ability to handle a project like

495
00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:45,910
this so at that point the board panicked

496
00:20:49,350 --> 00:20:47,410
they thought I would lose our funding

497
00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:49,360
source here so what is they turned

498
00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:51,010
around they try to skate though me as

499
00:20:55,230 --> 00:20:53,170
the person who's managed it okay how far

500
00:20:56,760 --> 00:20:55,240
back do they go through these books was

501
00:20:59,760 --> 00:20:56,770
adjust through the period in which they

502
00:21:01,890 --> 00:20:59,770
invested in MUFON or before that and who

503
00:21:04,770 --> 00:21:01,900
also was actually doing the books for

504
00:21:06,750 --> 00:21:04,780
you well we had was using QuickBooks for

505
00:21:10,650 --> 00:21:06,760
accounting so there were two different

506
00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:10,660
abouts of books one was Lufthansa books

507
00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:12,570
that went back to when I took over in

508
00:21:17,460 --> 00:21:15,810
2006 and what really irked me is that

509
00:21:21,360 --> 00:21:17,470
after I left

510
00:21:24,090 --> 00:21:21,370
Clifford cliff said that I was I was not

511
00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:24,100
doing proper accounting the records were

512
00:21:30,570 --> 00:21:29,050
were in disarray over MUFON 2006 the

513
00:21:33,330 --> 00:21:30,580
accounting consisted of a manual

514
00:21:35,630 --> 00:21:33,340
checkbook so really irked me because we

515
00:21:38,940 --> 00:21:35,640
we sort of turned around and tried to

516
00:21:40,260 --> 00:21:38,950
make sure that every specific financial

517
00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:40,270
transaction was entered in the quarter

518
00:21:44,130 --> 00:21:42,250
books and then it was all properly

519
00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:44,140
accounted for what they did is they

520
00:21:47,130 --> 00:21:45,730
turned over both sudden bucks looking

521
00:21:48,780 --> 00:21:47,140
for the move funds finances all the way

522
00:21:51,120 --> 00:21:48,790
back to 2006

523
00:21:55,110 --> 00:21:51,130
okay so when you come in it's just a

524
00:21:57,150 --> 00:21:55,120
checkbook a ledger and that's it okay so

525
00:22:00,270 --> 00:21:57,160
this organization has been around for

526
00:22:02,700 --> 00:22:00,280
then thirty five or so years and that's

527
00:22:05,610 --> 00:22:02,710
what the books work just bare-bones

528
00:22:08,340 --> 00:22:05,620
right okay so you put it on to

529
00:22:10,410 --> 00:22:08,350
QuickBooks you want this to be using a

530
00:22:12,120 --> 00:22:10,420
computerized program so they were

531
00:22:13,710 --> 00:22:12,130
looking at the errors made before you

532
00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:13,720
got things moved over to the

533
00:22:18,210 --> 00:22:15,970
computerized system no there were some

534
00:22:19,860 --> 00:22:18,220
there were some errors in our books we

535
00:22:22,860 --> 00:22:19,870
entered every single transaction in the

536
00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:22,870
books and so of course you know these

537
00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:25,210
want to be clerical errors of one form

538
00:22:29,970 --> 00:22:27,490
of one form or another and there were

539
00:22:32,370 --> 00:22:29,980
some balancing issues but the bottom

540
00:22:33,630 --> 00:22:32,380
line is that it was nothing there was no

541
00:22:36,210 --> 00:22:33,640
embezzlement of money there was no

542
00:22:38,430 --> 00:22:36,220
misappropriation of funds in fact after

543
00:22:39,900 --> 00:22:38,440
the vassal auditors had to go with it

544
00:22:42,780 --> 00:22:39,910
and then clifford cliff turned around

545
00:22:44,010 --> 00:22:42,790
and found an independent CPA firm to

546
00:22:45,630 --> 00:22:44,020
come in and audit again

547
00:22:47,910 --> 00:22:45,640
okay well began to more of that in a

548
00:22:50,430 --> 00:22:47,920
moment James carrion former director of

549
00:22:52,420 --> 00:22:50,440
MUFON joining us Chris O'Brien's the

550
00:23:02,140 --> 00:22:52,430
co-host I'm gene Steinberg

551
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the para cast ray Perkins a reclusive

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lives tortured by relentless perplexing

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662
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podcast and I completely unsuited ly

664
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665
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great program with opportunities to

666
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stretch out and talk we return talking

667
00:27:31,089 --> 00:27:29,029
about what's going on at MUFON James

668
00:27:33,310 --> 00:27:31,099
carrion former international director

669
00:27:35,019 --> 00:27:33,320
joining us Chris O'Brien's the co-host

670
00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:35,029
I'm Jean Steinberg you're in the para

671
00:27:39,399 --> 00:27:35,570
cast

672
00:27:42,310 --> 00:27:39,409
okay so Clifford Clift after their

673
00:27:44,589 --> 00:27:42,320
auditors leave he hires another auditing

674
00:27:46,149 --> 00:27:44,599
firm what did they determine well it was

675
00:27:48,310 --> 00:27:46,159
interesting because they they came out

676
00:27:50,139 --> 00:27:48,320
and they said well we don't any any

677
00:27:51,580 --> 00:27:50,149
problems at all with there's there

678
00:27:53,769 --> 00:27:51,590
hasn't been any embezzlement of funds

679
00:27:58,029 --> 00:27:53,779
every dollars accounted for but they

680
00:27:58,989 --> 00:27:58,039
tried to state that for example and the

681
00:28:01,089 --> 00:27:58,999
2008

682
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:01,099
MUFON symposium where there was a

683
00:28:06,849 --> 00:28:04,369
financial loss that the how I had

684
00:28:08,109 --> 00:28:06,859
documented that loss was was not correct

685
00:28:10,389 --> 00:28:08,119
that there was an actually actual

686
00:28:11,979 --> 00:28:10,399
greater loss and you know so it was

687
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:11,989
being accused of not doing proper

688
00:28:16,389 --> 00:28:13,970
financial record KPM I said well let me

689
00:28:18,039 --> 00:28:16,399
see your auditor reports and they

690
00:28:20,859 --> 00:28:18,049
refused to hand them over to me so they

691
00:28:24,399 --> 00:28:20,869
they basically were waving this audit

692
00:28:26,619 --> 00:28:24,409
audit team regarding reports in front of

693
00:28:28,089 --> 00:28:26,629
the MUFON membership saying oh thank God

694
00:28:29,859 --> 00:28:28,099
we got in here and fix this because

695
00:28:30,940 --> 00:28:29,869
there are problems but they never

696
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:30,950
actually released those ought to be

697
00:28:34,869 --> 00:28:32,690
reports for me to verify whether

698
00:28:36,159 --> 00:28:34,879
anything was actually properly done do

699
00:28:36,999 --> 00:28:36,169
you think you're being ambushed oh

700
00:28:38,919 --> 00:28:37,009
absolutely

701
00:28:40,599 --> 00:28:38,929
I think I was being scapegoated I think

702
00:28:42,879 --> 00:28:40,609
what the move on board was trying to do

703
00:28:45,219 --> 00:28:42,889
is saying okay yes we have problems our

704
00:28:48,279 --> 00:28:45,229
problem with James and once he's out

705
00:28:50,169 --> 00:28:48,289
were in charge he promised that we'll

706
00:28:52,779 --> 00:28:50,179
get things back in order

707
00:28:54,729 --> 00:28:52,789
I mean worth me the most to be honest

708
00:28:57,089 --> 00:28:54,739
was the letter they sent the bass or

709
00:28:59,019 --> 00:28:57,099
they offered bass complete transparency

710
00:29:00,339 --> 00:28:59,029
those were the actual term that was

711
00:29:02,889 --> 00:29:00,349
those are the actual words complete

712
00:29:04,450 --> 00:29:02,899
transparency so here they were they were

713
00:29:07,060 --> 00:29:04,460
doing this behind the back of the an

714
00:29:08,289 --> 00:29:07,070
Acting National Director they didn't

715
00:29:10,119 --> 00:29:08,299
form the bumper ship but they were

716
00:29:12,969 --> 00:29:10,129
offering complete transparency to a

717
00:29:14,950 --> 00:29:12,979
for-profit corporation well we I will be

718
00:29:16,380 --> 00:29:14,960
Co who's a treasurer of the

719
00:29:18,030 --> 00:29:16,390
International

720
00:29:20,550 --> 00:29:18,040
organization at this point I mean

721
00:29:23,070 --> 00:29:20,560
shouldn't the treasure be the one that's

722
00:29:26,310 --> 00:29:23,080
dealing with all this type of you know

723
00:29:26,970 --> 00:29:26,320
financial sort of inquiries and and

724
00:29:29,910 --> 00:29:26,980
whatnot

725
00:29:32,550 --> 00:29:29,920
well sure absolutely the the treasure is

726
00:29:34,610 --> 00:29:32,560
a board member Tom Whitmore and the

727
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:34,620
interesting thing about this is that

728
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:36,850
financial reports I submitted to the

729
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:41,170
board in summer of 2009 and even in the

730
00:29:46,020 --> 00:29:44,530
fall of 2009 we knew that there were

731
00:29:48,420 --> 00:29:46,030
some problems with the books in terms of

732
00:29:50,190 --> 00:29:48,430
balances for example anywhere our bank

733
00:29:52,530 --> 00:29:50,200
account was positive but the QuickBooks

734
00:29:53,940 --> 00:29:52,540
was showing some some negative numbers

735
00:29:56,820 --> 00:29:53,950
and we were trying to figure out what

736
00:29:59,940 --> 00:29:56,830
those were so well not it was was due

737
00:30:01,650 --> 00:29:59,950
for sure and independent audit but the

738
00:30:05,580 --> 00:30:01,660
treasurer rather than do that they

739
00:30:06,990 --> 00:30:05,590
decided to do it after they had released

740
00:30:08,670 --> 00:30:07,000
the books the bass when they should have

741
00:30:10,500 --> 00:30:08,680
done it before now let's look at the

742
00:30:12,420 --> 00:30:10,510
line of demarcation here you are

743
00:30:14,340 --> 00:30:12,430
international director you have a

744
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:14,350
treasurer isn't the treasurer

745
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:16,410
responsible for the condition of the

746
00:30:20,730 --> 00:30:18,850
organization's books well technically

747
00:30:22,050 --> 00:30:20,740
that's the way it should be but I think

748
00:30:23,310 --> 00:30:22,060
what's always happened is the

749
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:23,320
international directors always been

750
00:30:28,710 --> 00:30:25,810
responsible for handling the books and

751
00:30:30,210 --> 00:30:28,720
the day-to-day finances and basically

752
00:30:32,430 --> 00:30:30,220
the financial reports would go to the

753
00:30:34,050 --> 00:30:32,440
board to the treasurer and and they

754
00:30:37,590 --> 00:30:34,060
would sign off on it but basically were

755
00:30:39,230 --> 00:30:37,600
signing off on reports that that shows

756
00:30:42,390 --> 00:30:39,240
some discrepancies in the accounting

757
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:42,400
nothing that was nefarious or there was

758
00:30:48,270 --> 00:30:44,290
no wrongdoing it was just other wake up

759
00:30:49,890 --> 00:30:48,280
folks maintain the records so it was

760
00:30:51,300 --> 00:30:49,900
just it was basically they were saying

761
00:30:53,700 --> 00:30:51,310
okay well we believe you that there's

762
00:30:55,770 --> 00:30:53,710
nothing wrong and going on but then at

763
00:30:58,050 --> 00:30:55,780
the same time they were telling bass yes

764
00:30:59,940 --> 00:30:58,060
there is something wrong oh so they're

765
00:31:01,590 --> 00:30:59,950
talking on both sides of their mouth let

766
00:31:03,870 --> 00:31:01,600
me ask you about the position of

767
00:31:05,580 --> 00:31:03,880
international director of MUFON is this

768
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:05,590
a salaried position or a volunteer

769
00:31:14,190 --> 00:31:06,130
position

770
00:31:17,580 --> 00:31:14,200
is okay now what was your background

771
00:31:19,230 --> 00:31:17,590
before you got into MUFON as a salaried

772
00:31:21,270 --> 00:31:19,240
international director what were you

773
00:31:22,890 --> 00:31:21,280
doing well I've always been in the

774
00:31:26,100 --> 00:31:22,900
computer field I own a computer training

775
00:31:26,910 --> 00:31:26,110
company so I've always women computers

776
00:31:30,330 --> 00:31:26,920
one way or the other

777
00:31:33,540 --> 00:31:30,340
so I basically run my own business

778
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:33,550
and so I have a business background and

779
00:31:39,210 --> 00:31:36,490
sort of school of hard knocks and that

780
00:31:40,860 --> 00:31:39,220
sort of fact then too when I took over

781
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:40,870
the international record position

782
00:31:46,050 --> 00:31:42,850
getting the nonprofit and sort of

783
00:31:48,990 --> 00:31:46,060
business mode so basically here both you

784
00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:49,000
and your successor are business people

785
00:31:54,810 --> 00:31:51,090
you're not investigators per se

786
00:31:56,790 --> 00:31:54,820
well actually I wear many hats I'm I

787
00:31:58,920 --> 00:31:56,800
consider myself actually an investigator

788
00:32:00,870 --> 00:31:58,930
and I'm a pretty good investigator

789
00:32:03,030 --> 00:32:00,880
especially when it's when it's coming

790
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:03,040
from these high-profile cases like the

791
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:06,610
Kinross incident the great they like to

792
00:32:10,590 --> 00:32:08,170
buy a company website that came out that

793
00:32:13,140 --> 00:32:10,600
was the investigator this one sort of

794
00:32:15,090 --> 00:32:13,150
sunk that boat and also been involved

795
00:32:18,270 --> 00:32:15,100
seriously with these allegations that

796
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:18,280
came out about the California drones and

797
00:32:22,650 --> 00:32:20,770
those photos I I consider myself would

798
00:32:24,810 --> 00:32:22,660
be a high level investigator and a

799
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:24,820
pretty good investigator and the same

800
00:32:28,740 --> 00:32:26,890
time I'm also businessman I was gonna

801
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:28,750
say and also your work on the stand room

802
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:31,330
in that case I think should be mentioned

803
00:32:43,110 --> 00:32:37,410
as well in passing the way you found the

804
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:43,120
the misspelling of the word follow in in

805
00:32:49,830 --> 00:32:46,570
context to supposed additional reports

806
00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:49,840
that supported Roman X sighting report

807
00:32:54,990 --> 00:32:51,850
and then you found the same word

808
00:32:57,870 --> 00:32:55,000
misspelled and supposedly other people's

809
00:32:59,790 --> 00:32:57,880
reports that corroborated his initial

810
00:33:09,900 --> 00:32:59,800
report he was writing his own good

811
00:33:11,730 --> 00:33:09,910
reviews I would imagine all right

812
00:33:13,470 --> 00:33:11,740
continue I didn't mean to digress there

813
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:13,480
but I thought I'd point that one out

814
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:15,490
because I do doff my hat to you on that

815
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:17,530
particular catch let me ask you here

816
00:33:22,170 --> 00:33:20,530
during the course of time that you were

817
00:33:24,540 --> 00:33:22,180
getting money from Robert Bigelow and

818
00:33:26,820 --> 00:33:24,550
his people did you actually accomplish

819
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:26,830
anything other than just have a big

820
00:33:31,110 --> 00:33:28,810
humongous headache with all this extra

821
00:33:32,940 --> 00:33:31,120
money sitting around did you make some

822
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:32,950
meaningful progress in terms of

823
00:33:38,970 --> 00:33:37,090
investigations well there was some

824
00:33:40,140 --> 00:33:38,980
meaningful progress the meaningful

825
00:33:42,870 --> 00:33:40,150
progress was to be able to take a

826
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:42,880
high-priority case and be able to get

827
00:33:45,990 --> 00:33:43,570
rapidly

828
00:33:48,540 --> 00:33:46,000
Anders there quickly just in case it was

829
00:33:50,850 --> 00:33:48,550
a physical other mystical act now a lot

830
00:33:52,620 --> 00:33:50,860
of times new pond would would respond to

831
00:33:54,810 --> 00:33:52,630
a chase and get there a week later by

832
00:33:57,000 --> 00:33:54,820
that time every other investigators

833
00:33:58,830 --> 00:33:57,010
picked it over or three acity seekers

834
00:34:02,190 --> 00:33:58,840
and and so physical Orleans one end up

835
00:34:05,190 --> 00:34:02,200
getting trampled or misappropriated and

836
00:34:07,890 --> 00:34:05,200
so the thought was get get investigators

837
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:07,900
here quickly and get them and pay them

838
00:34:12,060 --> 00:34:09,970
to do that so they respond quickly and

839
00:34:14,940 --> 00:34:12,070
then try to secure the physical element

840
00:34:16,980 --> 00:34:14,950
so just as quickly the information you

841
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:16,990
got during this period did you publish

842
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:18,970
it or was it just given to Bigelow to

843
00:34:24,240 --> 00:34:22,330
hide well the information was given to

844
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:24,250
Bigelow but then we would also take the

845
00:34:27,990 --> 00:34:26,050
case reports and they would be in our

846
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:28,000
case management system for anybody to

847
00:34:32,220 --> 00:34:30,330
see and then some of those that were

848
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:32,230
interested also publishing the new

849
00:34:39,240 --> 00:34:35,770
functional now was any one or two

850
00:34:42,300 --> 00:34:39,250
specific really hot cases that came out

851
00:34:46,890 --> 00:34:42,310
of these investigations well there were

852
00:34:48,750 --> 00:34:46,900
a couple of cases there was a crafting

853
00:34:50,790 --> 00:34:48,760
that I forget the state that up was a

854
00:34:52,890 --> 00:34:50,800
non so long ago but it flew over the

855
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:52,900
head of this gentleman and he

856
00:34:58,320 --> 00:34:55,450
experienced of radiation type sickness

857
00:35:02,520 --> 00:34:58,330
after that so there were some blood

858
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:02,530
samples taken my beliefs into labs and I

859
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:04,930
believe there may have been a close

860
00:35:09,150 --> 00:35:07,450
encounter case somewhere the thing is

861
00:35:10,860 --> 00:35:09,160
that I was so busy running MUFON I

862
00:35:12,660 --> 00:35:10,870
wasn't really on top of the actual case

863
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:12,670
about our directly investigations to

864
00:35:18,240 --> 00:35:15,130
cure that I know there were a couple of

865
00:35:20,940 --> 00:35:18,250
significant cases do you recall the test

866
00:35:24,810 --> 00:35:20,950
results from these blood tests to be

867
00:35:27,510 --> 00:35:24,820
honest they don't okay you split from

868
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:27,520
MUFON did you leash shake hands or just

869
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:31,090
say goodbye good luck go away or what oh

870
00:35:36,690 --> 00:35:35,290
no my resignation was immediate so I

871
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:36,700
didn't I didn't show my face in the

872
00:35:45,180 --> 00:35:38,770
office again after that so you got a

873
00:35:47,970 --> 00:35:45,190
severance pay kind of reminds me of my

874
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:47,980
days back in radio in commercial radio

875
00:35:53,940 --> 00:35:50,890
where they would call me into the office

876
00:35:56,210 --> 00:35:53,950
hand me a check and say goodbye good

877
00:35:58,280 --> 00:35:56,220
luck go find another job

878
00:36:00,200 --> 00:35:58,290
want you anymore boy that just sounds

879
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:00,210
weird Jean severance pay and MUFON in

880
00:36:05,330 --> 00:36:03,450
the same sentence I'm not sure Wow James

881
00:36:06,980 --> 00:36:05,340
you know I mean this begs the question I

882
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:06,990
mean what what are your personal

883
00:36:11,930 --> 00:36:08,970
feelings you know being there from the

884
00:36:13,720 --> 00:36:11,940
get-go and big low approaches MUFON and

885
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:13,730
in light of some of the other

886
00:36:22,390 --> 00:36:18,050
acquisitions that he's been you know

887
00:36:27,349 --> 00:36:22,400
Brian Vike site for instance HPCC

888
00:36:29,240 --> 00:36:27,359
wrangling the FAA UFO reports what is

889
00:36:31,010 --> 00:36:29,250
your feelings about Bigelow and his

890
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:31,020
agenda I mean do you can you share any

891
00:36:38,300 --> 00:36:35,490
any thoughts about why he's going this

892
00:36:41,510 --> 00:36:38,310
this route of trying to obtain as much

893
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:41,520
data he's he's like casting a very large

894
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:43,530
net and backing it up with money I mean

895
00:36:47,060 --> 00:36:45,210
what what are your feelings about that

896
00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:47,070
and before you answer that question we

897
00:36:51,349 --> 00:36:49,170
have James carrion joining us Chris

898
00:36:56,060 --> 00:36:51,359
O'Brien's the co-host I'm Jean Steinberg

899
00:36:56,070 --> 00:36:59,800
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961
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962
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963
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964
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965
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967
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are you tired of searching for a great

1002
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talk radio more important search who

1003
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knows

1004
00:41:23,780 --> 00:41:17,729
this is the bear gasps you never know

1005
00:41:29,190 --> 00:41:26,610
we do that every so often neighbors we

1006
00:41:31,410 --> 00:41:29,200
have cliffhangers we've been joined by

1007
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:31,420
James carrion former director of the

1008
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:34,210
mutual UFO network the co-host is Chris

1009
00:41:38,580 --> 00:41:36,970
O'Brien I'm gene Steinberg you're in the

1010
00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:38,590
power cast the question on the table

1011
00:41:44,670 --> 00:41:42,970
James okay are you ready to answer my

1012
00:41:47,670 --> 00:41:44,680
personal feelings about what's going on

1013
00:41:50,130 --> 00:41:47,680
here be honest I think that when when an

1014
00:41:52,980 --> 00:41:50,140
organization like MUFON starts operating

1015
00:41:55,410 --> 00:41:52,990
outside the box in the case of MUFON

1016
00:41:57,750 --> 00:41:55,420
this was flowing out it's the star King

1017
00:41:58,860 --> 00:41:57,760
this rapid response team which we didn't

1018
00:42:01,770 --> 00:41:58,870
really have the money to put out in the

1019
00:42:03,720 --> 00:42:01,780
field but we said well just go ahead and

1020
00:42:05,310 --> 00:42:03,730
do it anyway and hopefully the funds

1021
00:42:07,470 --> 00:42:05,320
will show off and then all of a sudden

1022
00:42:10,230 --> 00:42:07,480
we were getting these offers for mr.

1023
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:10,240
Bigelow to to employ that same star team

1024
00:42:15,330 --> 00:42:13,330
under New York for investigations we

1025
00:42:16,710 --> 00:42:15,340
don't even know I don't think any board

1026
00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:16,720
members except for John Shuster knows

1027
00:42:21,420 --> 00:42:19,090
whose money really was behind that

1028
00:42:23,100 --> 00:42:21,430
project because it wasn't Bigelow's

1029
00:42:28,590 --> 00:42:23,110
money we know that it was some sponsors

1030
00:42:30,090 --> 00:42:28,600
some third-party sponsors that okay I'm

1031
00:42:31,770 --> 00:42:30,100
getting confused here so we have a

1032
00:42:34,410 --> 00:42:31,780
Bigelow money but now we have something

1033
00:42:37,230 --> 00:42:34,420
else that was funded your own research

1034
00:42:40,590 --> 00:42:37,240
project I'm sorry let me let me clarify

1035
00:42:42,180 --> 00:42:40,600
that okay sure fun bass project what we

1036
00:42:44,490 --> 00:42:42,190
were just talking about this fifty six

1037
00:42:46,740 --> 00:42:44,500
thousand dollars a month this was not

1038
00:42:47,550 --> 00:42:46,750
what this is thought come on mr. Bigelow

1039
00:42:49,380 --> 00:42:47,560
a bank account

1040
00:42:51,930 --> 00:42:49,390
these were sponsors that were giving him

1041
00:42:54,300 --> 00:42:51,940
the money for the new problem okay so I

1042
00:42:56,190 --> 00:42:54,310
was basically the intermediary exactly

1043
00:42:57,660 --> 00:42:56,200
but he won't say who those people were

1044
00:42:59,580 --> 00:42:57,670
well he did reveal who they were

1045
00:43:01,320 --> 00:42:59,590
allegedly to John Schuessler

1046
00:43:03,390 --> 00:43:01,330
John by the way is a former

1047
00:43:04,980 --> 00:43:03,400
international director of a MUFON right

1048
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:04,990
but he had John signed non-disclosure

1049
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:06,850
agreement and therefore John would not

1050
00:43:10,980 --> 00:43:08,770
reveal that to the rest of the board but

1051
00:43:12,900 --> 00:43:10,990
I did in our initial negotiations with

1052
00:43:15,780 --> 00:43:12,910
bass when I flew out to look for these

1053
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:15,790
in Vegas I point-blank asked them is

1054
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:20,410
this government money mmm the one

1055
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:22,330
question I have at the beginning of this

1056
00:43:28,410 --> 00:43:25,570
is why do they pick MUFON because you

1057
00:43:30,420 --> 00:43:28,420
were one of the few major organizations

1058
00:43:32,100 --> 00:43:30,430
doing any kind of research at all well

1059
00:43:35,450 --> 00:43:32,110
you know I'm gonna put on my very

1060
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:35,460
skeptical aliens don't exist if I have

1061
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:37,890
here which is kind of strange former

1062
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:39,210
national director of MUFON the state

1063
00:43:44,390 --> 00:43:41,610
that and just look at it from a Monday

1064
00:43:46,310 --> 00:43:44,400
and very trust your point of view if we

1065
00:43:48,140 --> 00:43:46,320
look at for example what the US Air

1066
00:43:52,490 --> 00:43:48,150
Force is doing and some of its

1067
00:43:54,350 --> 00:43:52,500
contractors in terms of developing new

1068
00:43:57,200 --> 00:43:54,360
aircraft these starfighters need stealth

1069
00:43:59,330 --> 00:43:57,210
bombers these projects a lot of them are

1070
00:44:01,640 --> 00:43:59,340
special access projects alright

1071
00:44:03,530 --> 00:44:01,650
using black money and they have a

1072
00:44:06,890 --> 00:44:03,540
substantial budget they set aside for

1073
00:44:12,500 --> 00:44:06,900
security so my my feeling is that as

1074
00:44:15,050 --> 00:44:12,510
part of this security font is is trying

1075
00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:15,060
to for a while two things keep the

1076
00:44:18,650 --> 00:44:16,290
public from knowing what's being

1077
00:44:20,330 --> 00:44:18,660
developing and more importantly keep our

1078
00:44:22,550 --> 00:44:20,340
enemies or nominees from knowing what's

1079
00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:22,560
being developed so I have a feeling that

1080
00:44:27,620 --> 00:44:23,970
they're sort of hijacking the UFO

1081
00:44:30,650 --> 00:44:27,630
phenomena pushing UFO myth in an attempt

1082
00:44:33,350 --> 00:44:30,660
to try to well somebody see something

1083
00:44:35,180 --> 00:44:33,360
flying around look strange and blame it

1084
00:44:38,990 --> 00:44:35,190
on the aliens instead of what it really

1085
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:39,000
is high-tech fighter okay isn't that

1086
00:44:45,140 --> 00:44:41,970
also part of the legend of area 51 that

1087
00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:45,150
area 51 you know we said a it's a place

1088
00:44:50,390 --> 00:44:48,210
where they're keeping evidence about

1089
00:44:52,790 --> 00:44:50,400
UFOs crashed saucers but really it was a

1090
00:44:54,530 --> 00:44:52,800
place where they were testing secret

1091
00:44:56,510 --> 00:44:54,540
weapons stealth fighters things like

1092
00:44:59,150 --> 00:44:56,520
that absolutely and so this is where we

1093
00:45:03,370 --> 00:44:59,160
get all of the surrounding Bob Lazar

1094
00:45:06,170 --> 00:45:03,380
and surrounding area 51 and the bees are

1095
00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:06,180
allegedly being kept there and it's a

1096
00:45:11,720 --> 00:45:08,370
lot of this is this mythology that's

1097
00:45:14,090 --> 00:45:11,730
been pushing by folks within I believe

1098
00:45:16,610 --> 00:45:14,100
within the intelligence community so

1099
00:45:21,020 --> 00:45:16,620
this sort of muddy the waters and to get

1100
00:45:23,180 --> 00:45:21,030
people believing okay yeah all right I

1101
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:23,190
gather that you've become more and more

1102
00:45:27,020 --> 00:45:24,690
of a skeptic over time but we'll get

1103
00:45:29,930 --> 00:45:27,030
into that in a moment so the theory

1104
00:45:31,220 --> 00:45:29,940
being here that Bigelow was getting some

1105
00:45:33,860 --> 00:45:31,230
money from the government

1106
00:45:35,570 --> 00:45:33,870
to kind of muddy the waters well that's

1107
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:35,580
that's all I can conclude at this point

1108
00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:37,650
because not only who our sponsors are

1109
00:45:42,890 --> 00:45:39,690
and looking at the timing of all this

1110
00:45:44,750 --> 00:45:42,900
we're moving we're starting to possible

1111
00:45:47,450 --> 00:45:44,760
appeal to Rapid Response Force and then

1112
00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:47,460
imagine that if you've got a call

1113
00:45:50,450 --> 00:45:48,930
coming in and says hey something crashed

1114
00:45:52,670 --> 00:45:50,460
in my backyard and we were to get there

1115
00:45:55,220 --> 00:45:52,680
first and it wasn't an alien craft it

1116
00:45:56,750 --> 00:45:55,230
was the latest stuff fighter they didn't

1117
00:45:59,870 --> 00:45:56,760
they wouldn't like that too much the the

1118
00:46:02,270 --> 00:45:59,880
Air Force or or its contractors so I

1119
00:46:03,110 --> 00:46:02,280
think they saw that as the sort of load

1120
00:46:06,020 --> 00:46:03,120
and threat

1121
00:46:08,950 --> 00:46:06,030
I'm not demotion they also saw us that

1122
00:46:11,900 --> 00:46:08,960
thought on saws with Fred blue Fonz

1123
00:46:14,270 --> 00:46:11,910
immediate our website where you could

1124
00:46:15,890 --> 00:46:14,280
report of a UFO and would show up on our

1125
00:46:18,020 --> 00:46:15,900
website and show you exactly where

1126
00:46:21,050 --> 00:46:18,030
what's happening and somebody halfway

1127
00:46:22,970 --> 00:46:21,060
across the world could monitor that and

1128
00:46:27,350 --> 00:46:22,980
it became sort of incident elegance for

1129
00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:27,360
the Russians or the Chinese okay so they

1130
00:46:32,510 --> 00:46:29,490
were afraid and they're testing secret

1131
00:46:34,420 --> 00:46:32,520
weapons and these secret weapons will be

1132
00:46:37,970 --> 00:46:34,430
mistaken for UFOs

1133
00:46:39,830 --> 00:46:37,980
MUFON reports that information and now

1134
00:46:41,810 --> 00:46:39,840
the Chinese and the Russians and

1135
00:46:43,850 --> 00:46:41,820
al-qaeda all know about it well it's not

1136
00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:43,860
not just reporting this imagine if we

1137
00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:45,530
were to happen upon a crash and

1138
00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:50,130
collecting hi composite material and

1139
00:46:54,110 --> 00:46:52,170
other things in other words they had a

1140
00:46:56,840 --> 00:46:54,120
containment issue and there was a patrol

1141
00:46:58,400 --> 00:46:56,850
issue here and and these intelligence

1142
00:47:01,040 --> 00:46:58,410
agencies are absolutely obsessed with

1143
00:47:03,110 --> 00:47:01,050
control well okay but if we have a

1144
00:47:04,820 --> 00:47:03,120
secret weapon and we assume you know

1145
00:47:06,710 --> 00:47:04,830
technology may be greater than what we

1146
00:47:09,290 --> 00:47:06,720
have now but certainly if you see a

1147
00:47:13,250 --> 00:47:09,300
crashed object of some kind it looks

1148
00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:13,260
like an Air Force plane or something or

1149
00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:15,810
something it's ours we just call the

1150
00:47:18,860 --> 00:47:17,130
proper authorities we wouldn't

1151
00:47:21,860 --> 00:47:18,870
necessarily think it's a UFO would we

1152
00:47:25,220 --> 00:47:21,870
know there's still a continuing issue

1153
00:47:27,590 --> 00:47:25,230
because what happens if MUFON

1154
00:47:30,260 --> 00:47:27,600
investigators show off and carry out

1155
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:30,270
some of these pieces on hide them or

1156
00:47:33,290 --> 00:47:31,890
pass them on to friends I mean the

1157
00:47:35,390 --> 00:47:33,300
bottom line is they want to control this

1158
00:47:38,330 --> 00:47:35,400
material very carefully but has it ever

1159
00:47:39,380 --> 00:47:38,340
happened ever not tomorrow not to my

1160
00:47:43,580 --> 00:47:39,390
knowledge I do know that

1161
00:47:45,410 --> 00:47:43,590
there was a UFO report that showed off

1162
00:47:47,930 --> 00:47:45,420
our website where somebody took a photo

1163
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:47,940
of a stealth aircraft a stealth vehicle

1164
00:47:53,210 --> 00:47:51,090
flying over a lake and the actual thing

1165
00:47:55,910 --> 00:47:53,220
was called the the black star the black

1166
00:47:58,250 --> 00:47:55,920
star project so they took a photo and

1167
00:47:59,450 --> 00:47:58,260
that was our website and supposedly this

1168
00:48:01,009 --> 00:47:59,460
was a project they'd been mothballed

1169
00:48:03,859 --> 00:48:01,019
years earlier

1170
00:48:05,179 --> 00:48:03,869
that was flying around the atmosphere so

1171
00:48:07,819 --> 00:48:05,189
you can imagine I don't know if it was

1172
00:48:10,729 --> 00:48:07,829
put up there and disinformation or

1173
00:48:14,509 --> 00:48:10,739
somebody really took the picture and it

1174
00:48:16,370 --> 00:48:14,519
was it was sort of oops for a long time

1175
00:48:19,609 --> 00:48:16,380
all right let's go back to more of the

1176
00:48:22,219 --> 00:48:19,619
business stuff here all right so you

1177
00:48:22,849 --> 00:48:22,229
shut the door say goodbye good luck I'm

1178
00:48:26,959 --> 00:48:22,859
out of here

1179
00:48:29,659 --> 00:48:26,969
now after that happened and you know we

1180
00:48:32,269 --> 00:48:29,669
had Clifford Clift on here and he

1181
00:48:35,209 --> 00:48:32,279
behaved like a gentleman but have they

1182
00:48:37,370 --> 00:48:35,219
been on going bad-mouthing of you of

1183
00:48:38,829 --> 00:48:37,380
your tenure at the organization oh

1184
00:48:41,329 --> 00:48:38,839
absolutely

1185
00:48:44,559 --> 00:48:41,339
interesting I got a email through a

1186
00:48:47,870 --> 00:48:44,569
third party the other day where this

1187
00:48:50,359 --> 00:48:47,880
member said oh well Clifford clerk has

1188
00:48:52,759 --> 00:48:50,369
assured me that you who find finances

1189
00:48:55,309 --> 00:48:52,769
are in order and no longer are their

1190
00:48:57,169 --> 00:48:55,319
bank statements that are still sitting

1191
00:49:00,079 --> 00:48:57,179
near old bank statements that haven't

1192
00:49:02,779 --> 00:49:00,089
been opened and the books are properly

1193
00:49:05,569 --> 00:49:02,789
reconciled so basically what the

1194
00:49:07,189 --> 00:49:05,579
Clifford was going around ec trained

1195
00:49:09,919 --> 00:49:07,199
himself sort of the savior of the

1196
00:49:11,719 --> 00:49:09,929
organization the person who's got new

1197
00:49:14,059 --> 00:49:11,729
farm back on the right track up her head

1198
00:49:15,199 --> 00:49:14,069
it's pretty everything off and yeah

1199
00:49:17,929 --> 00:49:15,209
there's a lot of this stuff going on

1200
00:49:21,349 --> 00:49:17,939
behind the scenes that I hear that okay

1201
00:49:22,249 --> 00:49:21,359
so publicly it's all smiles but behind

1202
00:49:25,309 --> 00:49:22,259
your back

1203
00:49:27,259 --> 00:49:25,319
it's the backstabbing oh absolutely and

1204
00:49:28,609 --> 00:49:27,269
I think that publicly he's not going to

1205
00:49:30,139 --> 00:49:28,619
say anything because I've already

1206
00:49:33,199 --> 00:49:30,149
threatened move on with the libel suit

1207
00:49:35,209 --> 00:49:33,209
now from what I'm hearing though there

1208
00:49:37,249 --> 00:49:35,219
have been a lot of things going on at

1209
00:49:38,929 --> 00:49:37,259
MUFON more recently kind of a

1210
00:49:41,719 --> 00:49:38,939
housecleaning state directors

1211
00:49:43,699 --> 00:49:41,729
disappearing being fired what's going on

1212
00:49:45,019 --> 00:49:43,709
there what are you hearing well there's

1213
00:49:46,819 --> 00:49:45,029
been a number of state records have been

1214
00:49:48,229 --> 00:49:46,829
fired and actually the one that

1215
00:49:50,959 --> 00:49:48,239
surprised me the most was the state

1216
00:49:52,639 --> 00:49:50,969
director for Colorado local barnacle so

1217
00:49:55,969 --> 00:49:52,649
I've worked with for a number of years

1218
00:49:58,309 --> 00:49:55,979
and she's performed admirably and in

1219
00:49:59,779 --> 00:49:58,319
Clifford let her go and stated that was

1220
00:50:02,120 --> 00:49:59,789
because there was a problem with their

1221
00:50:05,149 --> 00:50:02,130
management style well I think the real

1222
00:50:07,039 --> 00:50:05,159
reason they let her go was because at

1223
00:50:10,399 --> 00:50:07,049
the symposium the MUFON symposium this

1224
00:50:14,449 --> 00:50:10,409
last year in 2010 the Board meets with

1225
00:50:14,830 --> 00:50:14,459
state directors and Leslie recorded the

1226
00:50:20,470 --> 00:50:14,840
audio

1227
00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:20,480
its way to me and when I turned around

1228
00:50:25,570 --> 00:50:22,970
and said okay I summon off the board and

1229
00:50:28,120 --> 00:50:25,580
said listen folks you're either gonna

1230
00:50:29,470 --> 00:50:28,130
publish in the MUFON Journal that what

1231
00:50:31,420 --> 00:50:29,480
she said in this meeting about me is

1232
00:50:35,740 --> 00:50:31,430
bunk or you're looking at a libel suit

1233
00:50:38,260 --> 00:50:35,750
so I think after that happened they they

1234
00:50:42,370 --> 00:50:38,270
probably blamed Leslie for how the audio

1235
00:50:44,680 --> 00:50:42,380
got to me and they turned around and I

1236
00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:44,690
spoke with Leslie last night by the way

1237
00:50:49,240 --> 00:50:47,090
I had quite an extensive conversation

1238
00:50:51,250 --> 00:50:49,250
I've known Leslie for many years you

1239
00:50:55,050 --> 00:50:51,260
know having you know investigated for

1240
00:50:57,850 --> 00:50:55,060
years in Colorado I do know a lot of the

1241
00:50:59,710 --> 00:50:57,860
dedicated people in ufology in the state

1242
00:51:03,060 --> 00:50:59,720
of Colorado Leslie barnacle was an

1243
00:51:05,350 --> 00:51:03,070
absolute unsung hero first of all they

1244
00:51:07,090 --> 00:51:05,360
they claimed that her management style

1245
00:51:09,810 --> 00:51:07,100
was lacking that she didn't know what

1246
00:51:12,850 --> 00:51:09,820
she was doing to some degree and I

1247
00:51:15,220 --> 00:51:12,860
believe that's what she studied in in

1248
00:51:17,650 --> 00:51:15,230
college I think she went to a business

1249
00:51:20,530 --> 00:51:17,660
school if if memory serves been correct

1250
00:51:22,180 --> 00:51:20,540
and you know I'm a little I'm a little

1251
00:51:24,250 --> 00:51:22,190
surprised that somebody who has

1252
00:51:27,910 --> 00:51:24,260
dedicated so much of their own time

1253
00:51:31,150 --> 00:51:27,920
money and an effort in energy would be

1254
00:51:33,220 --> 00:51:31,160
summarily dismissed like that about it

1255
00:51:36,070 --> 00:51:33,230
let's pick it up Chris we'll find out

1256
00:51:36,580 --> 00:51:36,080
why why could that decision have

1257
00:51:38,110 --> 00:51:36,590
happened

1258
00:51:40,120 --> 00:51:38,120
Chrissa Brian's the co-host we're

1259
00:51:42,220 --> 00:51:40,130
talking to James carrion former director

1260
00:51:46,620 --> 00:51:42,230
of MUFON this week I'm gene Steinberg

1261
00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:49,650
[Music]

1262
00:51:54,700 --> 00:51:52,490
hi Ted Anderson announcing a great way

1263
00:51:56,920 --> 00:51:54,710
to listen to radio on the telephone by

1264
00:51:58,990 --> 00:51:56,930
calling seven six oh five six nine

1265
00:52:01,570 --> 00:51:59,000
seventy seven hundred you'll be hearing

1266
00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:01,580
juicy and live calm programs in seconds

1267
00:52:06,370 --> 00:52:04,010
come to GC and live.com find your

1268
00:52:09,310 --> 00:52:06,380
favorite host dedicated phone number and

1269
00:52:11,830 --> 00:52:09,320
hear them 24/7 you heard me right every

1270
00:52:14,380 --> 00:52:11,840
show has a dedicated phone number stop

1271
00:52:16,750 --> 00:52:14,390
by GC and live.com and bookmark their

1272
00:52:19,170 --> 00:52:16,760
number today and again that's seven six

1273
00:52:21,790 --> 00:52:19,180
oh five six nine seventy seven hundred

1274
00:52:23,890 --> 00:52:21,800
we the people grow cotton wheat fabric

1275
00:52:25,510 --> 00:52:23,900
engraving can bed strips and fibers to

1276
00:52:27,250 --> 00:52:25,520
protect from counterfeit and carding to

1277
00:52:27,790 --> 00:52:27,260
a private bank having a led back at

1278
00:52:29,470 --> 00:52:27,800
interest

1279
00:52:31,330 --> 00:52:29,480
forcing taxes to service debt this

1280
00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:31,340
capitalism was Jefferson correct when

1281
00:52:34,450 --> 00:52:32,810
stating a central bank issuing the

1282
00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:34,460
public currency is a greater menace to

1283
00:52:37,330 --> 00:52:35,570
the liberties of the people than a

1284
00:52:38,410 --> 00:52:37,340
standing army Ted Anderson I'm placing a

1285
00:52:40,510 --> 00:52:38,420
free silver dollar in a book that

1286
00:52:43,780 --> 00:52:40,520
explains our monetary system call for

1287
00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:43,790
your copy 800 686 to 237 it's time to

1288
00:52:54,030 --> 00:52:46,850
understand the system call 866 to 237

1289
00:52:59,670 --> 00:52:56,880
welcome back to the pear cast the gold

1290
00:53:07,680 --> 00:52:59,680
standard of paranormal radio and now

1291
00:53:10,350 --> 00:53:07,690
here's Jean Steinberg return with us now

1292
00:53:13,890 --> 00:53:10,360
James carrion former director of MUFON

1293
00:53:16,380 --> 00:53:13,900
with us with a long tale to tell and

1294
00:53:19,470 --> 00:53:16,390
we'll be continuing it meanwhile Chris

1295
00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:19,480
took over discussing the dismissal of

1296
00:53:23,610 --> 00:53:21,850
the State Director of Colorado Chris let

1297
00:53:26,610 --> 00:53:23,620
me ask you a question here because you

1298
00:53:28,170 --> 00:53:26,620
talk with her now was it proper for her

1299
00:53:29,970 --> 00:53:28,180
to have taped this session was that

1300
00:53:31,590 --> 00:53:29,980
normal to tape these sessions of the

1301
00:53:33,030 --> 00:53:31,600
board you know I didn't ask her that

1302
00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:33,040
directly Jeanne but I would think that

1303
00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:36,010
some sort of record or log of if not

1304
00:53:41,130 --> 00:53:38,410
minutes at least a recording his

1305
00:53:43,410 --> 00:53:41,140
standard operating procedure and you

1306
00:53:45,330 --> 00:53:43,420
know in any sort of board meeting or you

1307
00:53:48,330 --> 00:53:45,340
know the heads of any group would like

1308
00:53:50,370 --> 00:53:48,340
to obviously create a record of what it

1309
00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:50,380
is that they discuss so you know this is

1310
00:53:56,700 --> 00:53:53,890
really I don't know it it's it's quite

1311
00:53:59,880 --> 00:53:56,710
Machiavelli and sounding to me okay but

1312
00:54:03,060 --> 00:53:59,890
the point is here was that tape intended

1313
00:54:05,040 --> 00:54:03,070
to get out you see it's really difficult

1314
00:54:06,780 --> 00:54:05,050
I think I think what James was bringing

1315
00:54:09,300 --> 00:54:06,790
up is the very fact that it was recorded

1316
00:54:10,740 --> 00:54:09,310
at all was the issue because the tape

1317
00:54:12,810 --> 00:54:10,750
really didn't get out except to James

1318
00:54:16,530 --> 00:54:12,820
correct me if I'm wrong James I'm not

1319
00:54:18,990 --> 00:54:16,540
sure not to my knowledge

1320
00:54:20,910 --> 00:54:19,000
okay so are they objecting that the tape

1321
00:54:22,650 --> 00:54:20,920
got out to a third party is that part of

1322
00:54:25,200 --> 00:54:22,660
the problem well I'm not sure what the

1323
00:54:26,790 --> 00:54:25,210
problem is I'm just my speculation about

1324
00:54:29,970 --> 00:54:26,800
why Leslie was like that was related to

1325
00:54:32,790 --> 00:54:29,980
that audio tape audio recording because

1326
00:54:34,260 --> 00:54:32,800
it doesn't make sense that she was let

1327
00:54:36,540 --> 00:54:34,270
go because we were management's file her

1328
00:54:38,850 --> 00:54:36,550
management silenced them absolutely it's

1329
00:54:41,610 --> 00:54:38,860
astounding and she's she's the person

1330
00:54:43,680 --> 00:54:41,620
that actually successfully ran four or

1331
00:54:45,120 --> 00:54:43,690
five MUFON symposium so I've been the

1332
00:54:47,640 --> 00:54:45,130
state of Colorado international

1333
00:54:51,270 --> 00:54:47,650
symposiums in Denver she built the

1334
00:54:53,520 --> 00:54:51,280
membership she did fundraising she's

1335
00:54:55,950 --> 00:54:53,530
been outstanding member so I really

1336
00:54:58,410 --> 00:54:55,960
won't take exception to Clifford Cliff's

1337
00:55:00,090 --> 00:54:58,420
reasoning for letting her go well maybe

1338
00:55:02,520 --> 00:55:00,100
from what you telling me the real reason

1339
00:55:04,980 --> 00:55:02,530
is she didn't like the fact he didn't

1340
00:55:06,570 --> 00:55:04,990
like the fact that she presented this

1341
00:55:07,519 --> 00:55:06,580
information to you about what they said

1342
00:55:12,509 --> 00:55:07,529
behind your back

1343
00:55:14,489 --> 00:55:12,519
exactly which then was and it's possibly

1344
00:55:16,380 --> 00:55:14,499
gonna be the basis for a libel suit

1345
00:55:17,819 --> 00:55:16,390
against to move on okay so what are they

1346
00:55:18,599 --> 00:55:17,829
saying behind your back tell me about

1347
00:55:22,169 --> 00:55:18,609
this tape

1348
00:55:23,849 --> 00:55:22,179
well there's they they were not telling

1349
00:55:26,120 --> 00:55:23,859
the membership or the state directors

1350
00:55:28,769 --> 00:55:26,130
the truth about the MUFON bass project

1351
00:55:31,019 --> 00:55:28,779
they didn't they didn't tell the

1352
00:55:33,209 --> 00:55:31,029
membership that that they were doing

1353
00:55:36,269 --> 00:55:33,219
these behind the scenes behind the

1354
00:55:38,999 --> 00:55:36,279
scenes deal with would fast that I

1355
00:55:41,370 --> 00:55:39,009
resigned because of it they also said

1356
00:55:43,319 --> 00:55:41,380
that no no money's no best money was

1357
00:55:44,459 --> 00:55:43,329
used for MUFON operational expenses

1358
00:55:46,409 --> 00:55:44,469
which was not true

1359
00:55:50,039 --> 00:55:46,419
what happened was I was authorized to

1360
00:55:51,779 --> 00:55:50,049
take salary for managing the bass

1361
00:55:53,880 --> 00:55:51,789
project and I didn't take it that's all

1362
00:55:55,919 --> 00:55:53,890
I turned around like I donated it back

1363
00:55:58,829 --> 00:55:55,929
to move on they come to move on to

1364
00:56:00,419 --> 00:55:58,839
operational expenses so they were there

1365
00:56:01,919 --> 00:56:00,429
actually not being truthful to the

1366
00:56:03,329 --> 00:56:01,929
membership about it so there are a

1367
00:56:05,279 --> 00:56:03,339
number of things that were set in there

1368
00:56:07,679 --> 00:56:05,289
I think one of the most damaging things

1369
00:56:10,409 --> 00:56:07,689
and this is not for libel it's just from

1370
00:56:12,359 --> 00:56:10,419
my perspective is Clifford quote said

1371
00:56:15,120 --> 00:56:12,369
well the reason James left the

1372
00:56:16,889 --> 00:56:15,130
organization was because he was seeking

1373
00:56:18,439 --> 00:56:16,899
one truth and the MUFON board of

1374
00:56:21,179 --> 00:56:18,449
directors was seeking a different truth

1375
00:56:22,489 --> 00:56:21,189
which to me is aa sound B know what is

1376
00:56:27,719 --> 00:56:22,499
the truth

1377
00:56:29,309 --> 00:56:27,729
geez really shouldn't that claims that

1378
00:56:31,499 --> 00:56:29,319
their mission was a scientific study of

1379
00:56:33,509 --> 00:56:31,509
UFOs well there's only one truth and

1380
00:56:36,029 --> 00:56:33,519
that's the truth I can be food food

1381
00:56:38,579 --> 00:56:36,039
science okay the other point is here

1382
00:56:40,919 --> 00:56:38,589
you've become more skeptical of UFO

1383
00:56:43,199 --> 00:56:40,929
reality is that something that really

1384
00:56:45,599 --> 00:56:43,209
burned them a little bit they seem to

1385
00:56:49,409 --> 00:56:45,609
feel you know what he's betraying us

1386
00:56:51,689 --> 00:56:49,419
because he doesn't believe in et well I

1387
00:56:55,859 --> 00:56:51,699
I think it's a combination of that in

1388
00:56:59,219 --> 00:56:55,869
the fact that the James has like me and

1389
00:57:00,779 --> 00:56:59,229
like eugene suspect that you know the

1390
00:57:03,809 --> 00:57:00,789
powers that be the boys with toys and

1391
00:57:07,559 --> 00:57:03,819
big budgets don't want certain secrets

1392
00:57:10,379 --> 00:57:07,569
to get out and in some you know

1393
00:57:13,739 --> 00:57:10,389
percentage of UFO sightings could could

1394
00:57:16,139 --> 00:57:13,749
be of some sort of security concern to

1395
00:57:17,549 --> 00:57:16,149
the powers of bees so I mean correct me

1396
00:57:19,050 --> 00:57:17,559
if I'm wrong James I'm kind of speaking

1397
00:57:22,520 --> 00:57:19,060
for you here but

1398
00:57:26,670 --> 00:57:22,530
I I think it's a it's kind of a bit of a

1399
00:57:28,470 --> 00:57:26,680
black hole in ufology about you know the

1400
00:57:30,570 --> 00:57:28,480
equation of how much people are

1401
00:57:33,570 --> 00:57:30,580
reporting or actually very trishal in

1402
00:57:35,820 --> 00:57:33,580
top-secret incorrect me the wrong James

1403
00:57:37,470 --> 00:57:35,830
what do you think no I think I think

1404
00:57:40,800 --> 00:57:37,480
you're absolutely right I think that I

1405
00:57:42,570 --> 00:57:40,810
think the big issue here is that that

1406
00:57:45,390 --> 00:57:42,580
the MUFON board is a board of believers

1407
00:57:47,160 --> 00:57:45,400
they but they believe that UFOs are we

1408
00:57:48,780 --> 00:57:47,170
hope they don't they don't have a

1409
00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:48,790
terrestrial explanation they have an

1410
00:57:53,760 --> 00:57:51,010
extraterrestrial explanation it was

1411
00:57:55,620 --> 00:57:53,770
funny that when I what I did in my talk

1412
00:57:58,500 --> 00:57:55,630
at the crash retrieval conference in

1413
00:58:00,750 --> 00:57:58,510
Vegas on which was some feathers oh

1414
00:58:02,250 --> 00:58:00,760
absolutely it ruffled a number of people

1415
00:58:05,100 --> 00:58:02,260
and the interesting if you watch the

1416
00:58:06,360 --> 00:58:05,110
tape of that of my speech at the very

1417
00:58:09,570 --> 00:58:06,370
end there's a number of folks that get

1418
00:58:10,950 --> 00:58:09,580
off and me they sort of throw the book

1419
00:58:13,860 --> 00:58:10,960
at me and one of them happened to be a

1420
00:58:16,170 --> 00:58:13,870
MUFON board member so it's you know

1421
00:58:18,720 --> 00:58:16,180
these folks they are diehard believers

1422
00:58:20,520 --> 00:58:18,730
and you can't have a scientifically

1423
00:58:23,400 --> 00:58:20,530
based organization if your personal

1424
00:58:25,350 --> 00:58:23,410
beliefs are gonna be like are they are

1425
00:58:27,570 --> 00:58:25,360
we talking diehard believers are we also

1426
00:58:30,690 --> 00:58:27,580
talking about protecting certain secrets

1427
00:58:32,730 --> 00:58:30,700
as well well I'm not sure if they have a

1428
00:58:37,260 --> 00:58:32,740
vested interest in protecting secrets

1429
00:58:44,340 --> 00:58:37,270
the board itself but I think that

1430
00:58:46,380 --> 00:58:44,350
they're naive enough and there James I

1431
00:58:48,390 --> 00:58:46,390
mean for years people have been you know

1432
00:58:51,090 --> 00:58:48,400
just assume that there was some sort of

1433
00:58:53,460 --> 00:58:51,100
mole or government you know the

1434
00:58:57,060 --> 00:58:53,470
Associated person that's been high up in

1435
00:59:00,210 --> 00:58:57,070
MUFON kind of keeping tabs of what's

1436
00:59:03,720 --> 00:59:00,220
going on I mean I've always assumed that

1437
00:59:05,400 --> 00:59:03,730
and what's even scarier is if the

1438
00:59:08,040 --> 00:59:05,410
government didn't have someone like that

1439
00:59:09,870 --> 00:59:08,050
on the board or at least high up in the

1440
00:59:12,900 --> 00:59:09,880
organization that would be very

1441
00:59:15,540 --> 00:59:12,910
troubling if you know a meet I mean one

1442
00:59:19,650 --> 00:59:15,550
is worse than the other sure well I mean

1443
00:59:21,420 --> 00:59:19,660
I can I have suspicions but I have no

1444
00:59:23,910 --> 00:59:21,430
proof but I do know that somebody on the

1445
00:59:26,310 --> 00:59:23,920
board is leaking because I sent a

1446
00:59:27,810 --> 00:59:26,320
message to the board and that message

1447
00:59:30,450 --> 00:59:27,820
leaked out the third party is almost

1448
00:59:32,580 --> 00:59:30,460
immediately a fast question here okay

1449
00:59:35,430 --> 00:59:32,590
suing for liable what

1450
00:59:36,900 --> 00:59:35,440
rises to the level of libel and what

1451
00:59:38,850 --> 00:59:36,910
they said about you well I think

1452
00:59:40,740 --> 00:59:38,860
probably the biggest thing for me is

1453
00:59:43,590 --> 00:59:40,750
they portrayed it as financial

1454
00:59:47,340 --> 00:59:43,600
mismanagement that I had left new

1455
00:59:51,930 --> 00:59:47,350
friends finances of disarray that I did

1456
00:59:56,030 --> 00:59:51,940
not with due diligence and basically

1457
00:59:58,590 --> 00:59:56,040
that that I was asleep on the job and so

1458
01:00:00,300 --> 00:59:58,600
sort of painting me as sort of the

1459
01:00:04,500 --> 01:00:00,310
person that brought MUFON to its knees

1460
01:00:05,880 --> 01:00:04,510
and that's not only has been in said

1461
01:00:07,290 --> 01:00:05,890
among a MUFON membership but there are

1462
01:00:09,300 --> 01:00:07,300
quite a few folks outside of me from

1463
01:00:12,300 --> 01:00:09,310
that picked up on that mmm

1464
01:00:16,050 --> 01:00:12,310
you know that's it's not good when your

1465
01:00:18,540 --> 01:00:16,060
your actual business acumen is called

1466
01:00:21,840 --> 01:00:18,550
into question in that manner you know

1467
01:00:24,720 --> 01:00:21,850
this I'm not sure you know what to make

1468
01:00:26,370 --> 01:00:24,730
of the masa nations of a group that's

1469
01:00:29,700 --> 01:00:26,380
been established for as long as MUFON

1470
01:00:33,030 --> 01:00:29,710
has it's tawdry that that this sort of

1471
01:00:35,280 --> 01:00:33,040
thing has gone down and you know it's

1472
01:00:37,440 --> 01:00:35,290
it's without knowing all the facts like

1473
01:00:39,000 --> 01:00:37,450
you you do I mean you were there you

1474
01:00:43,050 --> 01:00:39,010
experienced all this stuff you have the

1475
01:00:46,440 --> 01:00:43,060
correspondence etc you know I it's hard

1476
01:00:48,420 --> 01:00:46,450
for for Jeanne and I obviously to cast a

1477
01:00:52,020 --> 01:00:48,430
blame where it needs to go

1478
01:00:54,480 --> 01:00:52,030
etc but it seems to me on the surface

1479
01:00:57,240 --> 01:00:54,490
what what I'm hearing from you and from

1480
01:01:00,300 --> 01:00:57,250
my own research is that this was this

1481
01:01:02,310 --> 01:01:00,310
was a real blatant power move to

1482
01:01:06,060 --> 01:01:02,320
continue the relationship with a third

1483
01:01:07,680 --> 01:01:06,070
party regardless of how much influence

1484
01:01:11,190 --> 01:01:07,690
that third party was having on the

1485
01:01:15,000 --> 01:01:11,200
organization and and you were kind of

1486
01:01:16,890 --> 01:01:15,010
used as the scapegoat to to legitimize

1487
01:01:20,310 --> 01:01:16,900
the you know the furthering of that

1488
01:01:22,380 --> 01:01:20,320
relationship and so what do you think of

1489
01:01:25,440 --> 01:01:22,390
this I mean what are your feelings about

1490
01:01:27,630 --> 01:01:25,450
the introduction of third parties into a

1491
01:01:29,670 --> 01:01:27,640
group like MUFON and and then these

1492
01:01:34,080 --> 01:01:29,680
subsequent masa nations that occur after

1493
01:01:35,730 --> 01:01:34,090
that well I think that the honest I

1494
01:01:36,900 --> 01:01:35,740
think if there's any controlled it's

1495
01:01:38,460 --> 01:01:36,910
gonna be extorted from this point

1496
01:01:39,840 --> 01:01:38,470
forward it's probably not gonna come

1497
01:01:42,330 --> 01:01:39,850
from outside and it's going to come from

1498
01:01:43,770 --> 01:01:42,340
with them but now that they have the

1499
01:01:46,950 --> 01:01:43,780
board in the shape that they wanted to

1500
01:01:50,030 --> 01:01:46,960
be the easier

1501
01:01:52,109 --> 01:01:50,040
- they'll infiltrate the organization

1502
01:01:54,980 --> 01:01:52,119
they don't really need to spend money I

1503
01:01:57,150 --> 01:01:54,990
move on to get the cases they want

1504
01:01:58,980 --> 01:01:57,160
so-called volunteers on the inside

1505
01:02:01,799 --> 01:01:58,990
that's feeding them right those cases

1506
01:02:04,079 --> 01:02:01,809
suffering well that brings me to this

1507
01:02:06,720 --> 01:02:04,089
question now when you go to MUFON to

1508
01:02:09,420 --> 01:02:06,730
report a UFO sighting I'm there right

1509
01:02:11,849 --> 01:02:09,430
now online at the very bottom of the

1510
01:02:13,049 --> 01:02:11,859
report form is a little box it's pretty

1511
01:02:14,880 --> 01:02:13,059
interesting that's called the witness

1512
01:02:19,020 --> 01:02:14,890
notice an election for release of

1513
01:02:21,599 --> 01:02:19,030
contact information now it's basically

1514
01:02:23,609 --> 01:02:21,609
saying it's asking you to agree to the

1515
01:02:25,440 --> 01:02:23,619
release of their contact information to

1516
01:02:28,589 --> 01:02:25,450
third parties as part of the

1517
01:02:30,990 --> 01:02:28,599
investigation of their report and then

1518
01:02:33,750 --> 01:02:31,000
there's another box both of these boxes

1519
01:02:36,000 --> 01:02:33,760
are unchecked ask you a question about

1520
01:02:38,670 --> 01:02:36,010
that - Chris in a moment and we'll go

1521
01:02:40,680 --> 01:02:38,680
into this we have James carrion joining

1522
01:02:43,079 --> 01:02:40,690
us this week Chris O'Brien's the co-host

1523
01:02:46,400 --> 01:02:43,089
I'm gene Steinberg you're in the para

1524
01:02:51,690 --> 01:02:49,070
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01:07:09,500 --> 01:07:07,740
hear from you if you have a comment or

1620
01:07:12,050 --> 01:07:09,510
question about the para cast send it to

1621
01:07:17,150 --> 01:07:12,060
news at the para cast com

1622
01:07:18,470 --> 01:07:17,160
you want to catch up on past episodes we

1623
01:07:21,110 --> 01:07:18,480
have hundreds of shows for you to

1624
01:07:24,890 --> 01:07:21,120
download direct from the para cast com

1625
01:07:30,140 --> 01:07:24,900
that's the para cast comm or check us

1626
01:07:32,630 --> 01:07:30,150
out on iTunes we have James carrion

1627
01:07:34,760 --> 01:07:32,640
joining us former mu Phan international

1628
01:07:36,530 --> 01:07:34,770
director Chris O'Brien's the co-host I'm

1629
01:07:39,170 --> 01:07:36,540
Jean Steinberg you're in the para cast

1630
01:07:41,780 --> 01:07:39,180
so I'm looking at the forum as you are

1631
01:07:43,610 --> 01:07:41,790
Chris so can you submit a citing without

1632
01:07:45,920 --> 01:07:43,620
checking those boxes I mean it's kind of

1633
01:07:48,590 --> 01:07:45,930
like well when you go to a store online

1634
01:07:50,960 --> 01:07:48,600
store like an Amazon or someone else and

1635
01:07:53,180 --> 01:07:50,970
you have these check boxes do you agree

1636
01:07:55,640 --> 01:07:53,190
to send your name for us to send it to

1637
01:07:58,190 --> 01:07:55,650
third parties or to send you newsletters

1638
01:08:04,490 --> 01:07:58,200
can you post a report without checking

1639
01:08:06,650 --> 01:08:04,500
those boxes anyone I'm not a move on you

1640
01:08:08,840 --> 01:08:06,660
are in other words neither of the boxes

1641
01:08:12,410 --> 01:08:08,850
are checked so normally you would go to

1642
01:08:14,480 --> 01:08:12,420
a you know a section of a report form

1643
01:08:17,720 --> 01:08:14,490
like this and one of those boxes would

1644
01:08:20,180 --> 01:08:17,730
be checked as a default the way it's set

1645
01:08:22,309 --> 01:08:20,190
up now none of those either of those

1646
01:08:24,620 --> 01:08:22,319
boxes either agreeing to a release the

1647
01:08:26,990 --> 01:08:24,630
information to a third party or not

1648
01:08:28,849 --> 01:08:27,000
agreeing to release that information to

1649
01:08:30,950 --> 01:08:28,859
a third party neither of those boxes are

1650
01:08:33,800 --> 01:08:30,960
checked now when I talked to Leslie VAR

1651
01:08:36,890 --> 01:08:33,810
Nicole she brought this point up and she

1652
01:08:38,090 --> 01:08:36,900
suggested to me on the record and I

1653
01:08:40,360 --> 01:08:38,100
asked her twice

1654
01:08:44,000 --> 01:08:40,370
she suggested that there is a

1655
01:08:47,510 --> 01:08:44,010
preliminary filter that is taking these

1656
01:08:50,030 --> 01:08:47,520
reports cherry-picking them basically to

1657
01:08:53,090 --> 01:08:50,040
a third party do you know anything about

1658
01:08:55,309 --> 01:08:53,100
that well keep in mind that the election

1659
01:08:57,620 --> 01:08:55,319
notice you were referring to at the

1660
01:08:59,930 --> 01:08:57,630
bottom of that short form was put there

1661
01:09:02,690 --> 01:08:59,940
explicitly for the mufon bass project

1662
01:09:06,650 --> 01:09:02,700
and that was how MUFON legally covered

1663
01:09:08,450 --> 01:09:06,660
itself when we release an information to

1664
01:09:10,190 --> 01:09:08,460
boss so that would not even be on the

1665
01:09:12,680 --> 01:09:10,200
form if

1666
01:09:14,930 --> 01:09:12,690
particle is not an effect exactly but

1667
01:09:17,720 --> 01:09:14,940
one of those boxes is not checked as a

1668
01:09:20,240 --> 01:09:17,730
default so Mike you know genes question

1669
01:09:22,490 --> 01:09:20,250
and my question is what happens to that

1670
01:09:24,890 --> 01:09:22,500
report if there was not a checkmark and

1671
01:09:27,290 --> 01:09:24,900
one of those two boxes is is that

1672
01:09:29,810 --> 01:09:27,300
legally allowing a third party to have

1673
01:09:32,180 --> 01:09:29,820
access to those reports prior to them

1674
01:09:33,560 --> 01:09:32,190
being posted publicly by MUFON and who

1675
01:09:35,750 --> 01:09:33,570
was the third party if they're no longer

1676
01:09:37,640 --> 01:09:35,760
working with Bigelow well I'm looking at

1677
01:09:39,590 --> 01:09:37,650
the short form right now and I would

1678
01:09:40,700 --> 01:09:39,600
have to fill it out quite a bogus report

1679
01:09:43,370 --> 01:09:40,710
here just to see if it'll let me

1680
01:09:45,260 --> 01:09:43,380
continue submitting without choosing but

1681
01:09:46,970 --> 01:09:45,270
based on the factory look like radio

1682
01:09:48,980 --> 01:09:46,980
buttons not checkboxes I would assume

1683
01:09:51,470 --> 01:09:48,990
you happen if one of the two before will

1684
01:09:53,450 --> 01:09:51,480
let you continue what was interesting

1685
01:09:56,570 --> 01:09:53,460
though is that when clifford cliff was

1686
01:09:58,700 --> 01:09:56,580
asked that same question the joiner

1687
01:10:00,170 --> 01:09:58,710
record he said well that's not even

1688
01:10:02,930 --> 01:10:00,180
going to bass we have no relationship

1689
01:10:05,420 --> 01:10:02,940
with bass I think that's still there

1690
01:10:08,480 --> 01:10:05,430
because we released this information to

1691
01:10:09,590 --> 01:10:08,490
our consultants or phd's which is

1692
01:10:11,210 --> 01:10:09,600
completely incorrect

1693
01:10:13,130 --> 01:10:11,220
MUFON doesn't need to get their third

1694
01:10:15,680 --> 01:10:13,140
party released to some information to

1695
01:10:17,960 --> 01:10:15,690
consultants that information before any

1696
01:10:19,370 --> 01:10:17,970
consultants for you lose a consultant is

1697
01:10:20,420 --> 01:10:19,380
not a third party they're part of the

1698
01:10:23,420 --> 01:10:20,430
organization or anything

1699
01:10:25,370 --> 01:10:23,430
absolutely okay so it's still there but

1700
01:10:26,960 --> 01:10:25,380
you know it's also it's a matter of web

1701
01:10:29,090 --> 01:10:26,970
programming that maybe they hadn't had a

1702
01:10:30,770 --> 01:10:29,100
chance or the ability to take it down

1703
01:10:36,380 --> 01:10:30,780
but they did redesign the site recently

1704
01:10:38,720 --> 01:10:36,390
so you wonder yeah the questions I posed

1705
01:10:40,580 --> 01:10:38,730
on my blog about this particular

1706
01:10:42,380 --> 01:10:40,590
election notice and whether or not John

1707
01:10:45,230 --> 01:10:42,390
Shuster has a government security

1708
01:10:46,970 --> 01:10:45,240
clearance related to bass work these are

1709
01:10:49,640 --> 01:10:46,980
all questions that the board should just

1710
01:10:50,780 --> 01:10:49,650
come out and answer explicitly instead

1711
01:10:52,250 --> 01:10:50,790
what happens is they've been dancing

1712
01:10:54,770 --> 01:10:52,260
around the issue they never give a

1713
01:10:56,630 --> 01:10:54,780
straight answer and it just leads people

1714
01:10:59,150 --> 01:10:56,640
to believe that something is going on

1715
01:11:02,360 --> 01:10:59,160
that's not various so if they if they

1716
01:11:03,980 --> 01:11:02,370
really want to sort of put these rumors

1717
01:11:05,930 --> 01:11:03,990
to rest they should just come out and be

1718
01:11:07,220 --> 01:11:05,940
open and transparent about and said

1719
01:11:10,240 --> 01:11:07,230
they're taking sort of this cloak of

1720
01:11:13,490 --> 01:11:10,250
secrecy on which I really have no reason

1721
01:11:15,200 --> 01:11:13,500
why there was another some other state

1722
01:11:18,800 --> 01:11:15,210
directors dismissed too not just this

1723
01:11:21,080 --> 01:11:18,810
woman from Colorado that's correct there

1724
01:11:22,280 --> 01:11:21,090
was a state record ago for both Lahoma

1725
01:11:23,750 --> 01:11:22,290
from Utah

1726
01:11:25,850 --> 01:11:23,760
Elaine Douglas who was

1727
01:11:28,490 --> 01:11:25,860
move on for a number of years of course

1728
01:11:30,110 --> 01:11:28,500
ken cherry was left a while back before

1729
01:11:33,410 --> 01:11:30,120
him I believe the state director for

1730
01:11:35,410 --> 01:11:33,420
North Carolina Ricky Blaine so there's a

1731
01:11:37,970 --> 01:11:35,420
number of folks that were let go since

1732
01:11:41,060 --> 01:11:37,980
what reasons were given for those people

1733
01:11:41,630 --> 01:11:41,070
their management styles - well I don't

1734
01:11:43,490 --> 01:11:41,640
know about

1735
01:11:45,920 --> 01:11:43,500
for example Richard Lyon from North

1736
01:11:48,320 --> 01:11:45,930
Carolina he now that for Ken cherry

1737
01:11:51,280 --> 01:11:48,330
he went public and was very critical of

1738
01:11:53,810 --> 01:11:51,290
MUFON and we've done some YouTube videos

1739
01:11:55,550 --> 01:11:53,820
and Clifford and the board took

1740
01:11:58,740 --> 01:11:55,560
exception to that and I seem to publicly

1741
01:12:01,060 --> 01:11:58,750
apologize refused to and therefore the

1742
01:12:04,610 --> 01:12:01,070
[Music]

1743
01:12:06,290 --> 01:12:04,620
boy sounds like a bloodletting now over

1744
01:12:09,080 --> 01:12:06,300
the years that you've been following

1745
01:12:11,420 --> 01:12:09,090
MUFON have they had situations where

1746
01:12:15,650 --> 01:12:11,430
state directors are suddenly thrust out

1747
01:12:18,040 --> 01:12:15,660
is this more of a problem now since this

1748
01:12:20,750 --> 01:12:18,050
happened well I think I think that

1749
01:12:22,600 --> 01:12:20,760
problems history state records of in my

1750
01:12:24,470 --> 01:12:22,610
fellow most I think but most of those

1751
01:12:26,720 --> 01:12:24,480
were let go because they were

1752
01:12:29,000 --> 01:12:26,730
non-performing even even when I was -

1753
01:12:31,610 --> 01:12:29,010
national director I would move some

1754
01:12:33,490 --> 01:12:31,620
state directors who loved the title and

1755
01:12:36,830 --> 01:12:33,500
loved the position but never didn't work

1756
01:12:38,750 --> 01:12:36,840
I think we're seeing now that's much

1757
01:12:40,160 --> 01:12:38,760
different is we're seeing sort of

1758
01:12:42,410 --> 01:12:40,170
closing this page

1759
01:12:44,080 --> 01:12:42,420
it's a purge we're seeing a closing of

1760
01:12:47,180 --> 01:12:44,090
the ranks where the board is trying to

1761
01:12:49,520 --> 01:12:47,190
form certain image from MUFON and if

1762
01:12:52,030 --> 01:12:49,530
there are any folks that don't meet that

1763
01:12:55,580 --> 01:12:52,040
image or there any voices of dissent

1764
01:12:59,760 --> 01:12:55,590
they're sort of being kicked out and so

1765
01:13:01,150 --> 01:12:59,770
that the board has it's unified voice

1766
01:13:03,950 --> 01:13:01,160
[Music]

1767
01:13:05,600 --> 01:13:03,960
yeah it's a 501 C 3 they can get away

1768
01:13:08,530 --> 01:13:05,610
with it - it doesn't have to go to the

1769
01:13:11,570 --> 01:13:08,540
membership that's correct it's not an

1770
01:13:15,290 --> 01:13:11,580
organization so they can say you're out

1771
01:13:18,170 --> 01:13:15,300
Metz it yeah well they demote you to

1772
01:13:20,870 --> 01:13:18,180
journal subscriber status they get j/s

1773
01:13:22,910 --> 01:13:20,880
we should mention by the way that this

1774
01:13:26,240 --> 01:13:22,920
is a long time ago in a galaxy far far

1775
01:13:29,450 --> 01:13:26,250
away none other than our old friend Jim

1776
01:13:31,100 --> 01:13:29,460
Mosely the editor of saucer smear he

1777
01:13:33,080 --> 01:13:31,110
went through a whole thing with MUFON

1778
01:13:35,810 --> 01:13:33,090
you know over the years he knew long ago

1779
01:13:36,440 --> 01:13:35,820
Andras the original director where they

1780
01:13:38,690 --> 01:13:36,450
wouldn't even let

1781
01:13:39,950 --> 01:13:38,700
even a member finally he convinced him

1782
01:13:42,950 --> 01:13:39,960
to let him go and then they make him

1783
01:13:45,410 --> 01:13:42,960
like an associate state regional

1784
01:13:47,450 --> 01:13:45,420
director for the county in which Key

1785
01:13:50,300 --> 01:13:47,460
West Florida is located and he was

1786
01:13:51,800 --> 01:13:50,310
dismissed because he never produced me

1787
01:13:54,110 --> 01:13:51,810
citing reports and he said because there

1788
01:13:55,310 --> 01:13:54,120
weren't any you know he was keeping you

1789
01:13:58,760 --> 01:13:55,320
know watch and nothing was happening

1790
01:14:00,860 --> 01:13:58,770
they dismissed him and they relegated

1791
01:14:04,730 --> 01:14:00,870
him to the title of Journal subscriber

1792
01:14:06,860 --> 01:14:04,740
or Jas that's the story I still got a

1793
01:14:09,710 --> 01:14:06,870
lap out of reading saucers in there and

1794
01:14:13,220 --> 01:14:09,720
I forgot who it was that described Jim

1795
01:14:17,510 --> 01:14:13,230
as the pimple on the ass of you holida

1796
01:14:22,130 --> 01:14:17,520
John keel yes yeah no a boil on the ass

1797
01:14:23,600 --> 01:14:22,140
of youth oh well he's the court jester I

1798
01:14:25,220 --> 01:14:23,610
mean you have to give him his due he's

1799
01:14:27,320 --> 01:14:25,230
been involved in this field over 50

1800
01:14:31,430 --> 01:14:27,330
years and boy he's seen him come and go

1801
01:14:33,470 --> 01:14:31,440
and I you know James I think you you

1802
01:14:36,350 --> 01:14:33,480
brought up the t-word a very important

1803
01:14:38,470 --> 01:14:36,360
word I think to keep in mind when we're

1804
01:14:42,470 --> 01:14:38,480
dealing with this whole nefarious

1805
01:14:45,170 --> 01:14:42,480
scenario and that is transparency we're

1806
01:14:48,050 --> 01:14:45,180
dealing with an organization that now is

1807
01:14:50,060 --> 01:14:48,060
digitized finally could you imagine what

1808
01:14:52,490 --> 01:14:50,070
would have happened back in the 70s if a

1809
01:14:55,190 --> 01:14:52,500
tornado hit wall Anders's garage and

1810
01:14:58,400 --> 01:14:55,200
Seguin we would have had MUFON reports

1811
01:15:01,430 --> 01:14:58,410
scattered across the Midwest and it's

1812
01:15:02,900 --> 01:15:01,440
good and under your direction yeah

1813
01:15:04,910 --> 01:15:02,910
correct me if I'm wrong I think you were

1814
01:15:09,050 --> 01:15:04,920
the one that really spearheaded the

1815
01:15:11,330 --> 01:15:09,060
digitization of of the MUFON you know

1816
01:15:13,640 --> 01:15:11,340
well obviously Bigelow thinks it's worth

1817
01:15:14,450 --> 01:15:13,650
something or his sponsors do I mean it's

1818
01:15:17,390 --> 01:15:14,460
a very valuable

1819
01:15:20,600 --> 01:15:17,400
you know log of information it's a

1820
01:15:22,730 --> 01:15:20,610
database that's you know it's wonderful

1821
01:15:26,960 --> 01:15:22,740
now people can go and they can do word

1822
01:15:29,960 --> 01:15:26,970
searches in the CMS system look up files

1823
01:15:32,480 --> 01:15:29,970
in a file cabinet somewhere like APRA we

1824
01:15:34,130 --> 01:15:32,490
don't want to get Walt's garage she had

1825
01:15:36,380 --> 01:15:34,140
all the MUFON files somebody told me in

1826
01:15:39,200 --> 01:15:36,390
his garage I can believe that you know

1827
01:15:41,120 --> 01:15:39,210
we're talking to James Kerry on the

1828
01:15:46,270 --> 01:15:41,130
co-host is Chris O'Brien I'm gene

1829
01:15:52,660 --> 01:15:49,290
[Music]

1830
01:15:55,390 --> 01:15:52,670
Ray Perkins a reclusive veteran burned

1831
01:15:57,660 --> 01:15:55,400
out from the Gulf War lives tortured by

1832
01:16:00,040 --> 01:15:57,670
relentless perplexing nightmares

1833
01:16:01,960 --> 01:16:00,050
nightmares of a horrific battle in deep

1834
01:16:04,210 --> 01:16:01,970
space and of a mysterious woman

1835
01:16:07,360 --> 01:16:04,220
suffering an agony for her devastated

1836
01:16:11,400 --> 01:16:07,370
world a woman not yet born calling

1837
01:16:13,990 --> 01:16:11,410
across centuries to him then a

1838
01:16:17,290 --> 01:16:14,000
coincidence leads him to his destiny his

1839
01:16:19,900 --> 01:16:17,300
chance to alter the universe attack of

1840
01:16:21,760 --> 01:16:19,910
the rocket the former fiction editor for

1841
01:16:24,070 --> 01:16:21,770
Star Wars and Indiana Jones Robert

1842
01:16:25,900 --> 01:16:24,080
Simpson writes the soul of the novel

1843
01:16:27,370 --> 01:16:25,910
attack of the Rockaways lies in its

1844
01:16:29,350 --> 01:16:27,380
heart and passion for building a

1845
01:16:32,380 --> 01:16:29,360
convincing tale of a love that spans the

1846
01:16:35,290 --> 01:16:32,390
galaxy a thrilling story attack of the

1847
01:16:37,090 --> 01:16:35,300
rocket is available now read a sample

1848
01:16:38,920 --> 01:16:37,100
chapter and get a special discount off

1849
01:16:44,080 --> 01:16:38,930
of the cover price at our website

1850
01:16:47,500 --> 01:16:44,090
Rocko is calm that's our Ock o IDs calm

1851
01:16:50,290 --> 01:16:47,510
attack of the rocket a novel in the

1852
01:16:52,150 --> 01:16:50,300
grand science-fiction tradition this is

1853
01:16:53,620 --> 01:16:52,160
Alex Jones with five good reasons you

1854
01:16:55,990 --> 01:16:53,630
should consider buying a solar power

1855
01:16:57,610 --> 01:16:56,000
generator number one new climate

1856
01:16:59,800 --> 01:16:57,620
legislation could easily double or

1857
01:17:01,870 --> 01:16:59,810
triple your electric bill number two our

1858
01:17:03,700 --> 01:17:01,880
new energy czar wants to control how

1859
01:17:05,860 --> 01:17:03,710
much power your electric company allows

1860
01:17:07,930 --> 01:17:05,870
you to have it's true total government

1861
01:17:10,480 --> 01:17:07,940
control of electricity in the name of

1862
01:17:12,550 --> 01:17:10,490
smart grid technology is coming number

1863
01:17:14,500 --> 01:17:12,560
three in some areas of the country the

1864
01:17:17,200 --> 01:17:14,510
power grid is dangerously overloaded and

1865
01:17:19,090 --> 01:17:17,210
now a new socialist legislation is only

1866
01:17:21,100 --> 01:17:19,100
compounding the problem number four

1867
01:17:23,230 --> 01:17:21,110
dangerous weather is always a threat to

1868
01:17:24,460 --> 01:17:23,240
local grids every year thousands of

1869
01:17:26,530 --> 01:17:24,470
families lose their power from

1870
01:17:28,510 --> 01:17:26,540
weather-related outages number five a

1871
01:17:30,910 --> 01:17:28,520
solar power generator provides powerful

1872
01:17:32,200 --> 01:17:30,920
backup insurance and peace of mind folks

1873
01:17:33,670 --> 01:17:32,210
I really believe in the solar power

1874
01:17:35,890 --> 01:17:33,680
generators offered my solutions from

1875
01:17:42,270 --> 01:17:35,900
science one of my oldest sponsors you

1876
01:17:49,030 --> 01:17:47,200
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1877
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1878
01:17:52,750 --> 01:17:51,050
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1879
01:17:54,910 --> 01:17:52,760
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1880
01:17:57,910 --> 01:17:54,920
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1881
01:18:00,430 --> 01:17:57,920
your car run on 100% electric power for

1882
01:18:02,080 --> 01:18:00,440
three it is now possible how about a

1883
01:18:03,939 --> 01:18:02,090
simple device that is both a super

1884
01:18:06,340 --> 01:18:03,949
efficient motor and a free energy

1885
01:18:08,320 --> 01:18:06,350
generator at the same time what if this

1886
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could also be used to restore useless

1887
01:18:12,640 --> 01:18:10,310
batteries and save you lots of money

1888
01:18:14,439 --> 01:18:12,650
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1889
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have organized a renaissance charge

1890
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1891
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1892
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1893
01:18:24,580 --> 01:18:23,000
these fascinating Energizer's but you

1894
01:18:27,580 --> 01:18:24,590
will be able to build some alongside

1895
01:18:29,380 --> 01:18:27,590
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1896
01:18:31,000 --> 01:18:29,390
in this truly historic event featuring

1897
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1898
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1899
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1900
01:18:41,050 --> 01:18:37,969
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1901
01:18:43,689 --> 01:18:41,060
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1902
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1903
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1904
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1905
01:18:53,560 --> 01:18:52,310
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1906
01:18:55,570 --> 01:18:53,570
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1907
01:18:57,490 --> 01:18:55,580
maintaining high energy and vibrant

1908
01:18:59,590 --> 01:18:57,500
health most experts agree that the water

1909
01:19:02,020 --> 01:18:59,600
you drank should be at a pH level of 8

1910
01:19:04,120 --> 01:19:02,030
or higher elevation plasma pH drops

1911
01:19:06,370 --> 01:19:04,130
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1912
01:19:08,260 --> 01:19:06,380
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1913
01:19:10,419 --> 01:19:08,270
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1914
01:19:12,610 --> 01:19:10,429
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1915
01:19:14,560 --> 01:19:12,620
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1916
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1917
01:19:18,729 --> 01:19:16,370
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1918
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10 drops of alkaviva plasma pH drops

1919
01:19:22,959 --> 01:19:20,870
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1920
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1921
01:19:27,669 --> 01:19:25,219
raises the pH of your body to healthy

1922
01:19:29,470 --> 01:19:27,679
levels and bacteria and viruses cannot

1923
01:19:30,939 --> 01:19:29,480
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1924
01:19:33,280 --> 01:19:30,949
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1925
01:19:35,080 --> 01:19:33,290
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1926
01:19:38,560 --> 01:19:35,090
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1927
01:19:43,530 --> 01:19:38,570
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1928
01:19:46,300 --> 01:19:43,540
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1929
01:19:49,560 --> 01:19:46,310
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1930
01:19:51,780 --> 01:19:49,570
health at Alka vision calm today

1931
01:19:56,200 --> 01:19:51,790
America's number one source for

1932
01:20:01,440 --> 01:19:56,210
independent authoring for over a decade

1933
01:20:08,280 --> 01:20:05,510
[Music]

1934
01:20:17,850 --> 01:20:08,290
you do assumptions in the para cast

1935
01:20:18,540 --> 01:20:17,860
because he will learn a great deal we

1936
01:20:20,670 --> 01:20:18,550
return

1937
01:20:22,500 --> 01:20:20,680
James carrion joins us Chris O'Brien's

1938
01:20:25,140 --> 01:20:22,510
the co-host I'm Jean Steinberger in the

1939
01:20:27,450 --> 01:20:25,150
para cast so up till the time the

1940
01:20:29,700 --> 01:20:27,460
records were computerized was it like

1941
01:20:31,590 --> 01:20:29,710
that just the old file cabinets and file

1942
01:20:35,640 --> 01:20:31,600
folders and stuff like that James oh

1943
01:20:38,310 --> 01:20:35,650
absolutely and sort of complete disarray

1944
01:20:41,160 --> 01:20:38,320
so what I proposed to the board was what

1945
01:20:42,750 --> 01:20:41,170
I from the Pandora project and they gave

1946
01:20:45,450 --> 01:20:42,760
me the go-ahead to take all those files

1947
01:20:48,390 --> 01:20:45,460
and properly organize them and case

1948
01:20:51,560 --> 01:20:48,400
number them and and then digitize them

1949
01:20:55,320 --> 01:20:51,570
so with all of her founds domestic files

1950
01:20:56,870 --> 01:20:55,330
from the u.s. word were digitized and

1951
01:20:59,010 --> 01:20:56,880
they're in PDF completely searchable

1952
01:21:00,900 --> 01:20:59,020
they've also been distributed out to all

1953
01:21:02,580 --> 01:21:00,910
the states so you'd stay director about

1954
01:21:04,680 --> 01:21:02,590
all the historical case files for their

1955
01:21:06,840 --> 01:21:04,690
own state and then of course it's

1956
01:21:08,580 --> 01:21:06,850
someone who funds website went up from

1957
01:21:11,070 --> 01:21:08,590
that point forward it was no longer

1958
01:21:13,260 --> 01:21:11,080
paper files those are web-based so yeah

1959
01:21:16,200 --> 01:21:13,270
MUFON is and is in possession of an

1960
01:21:18,540 --> 01:21:16,210
enormous amount of information but you

1961
01:21:21,180 --> 01:21:18,550
know having gone through most of these

1962
01:21:23,520 --> 01:21:21,190
historical files I think there's

1963
01:21:26,330 --> 01:21:23,530
something like 13,000 of them I've got

1964
01:21:29,250 --> 01:21:26,340
to say that what what concerns me about

1965
01:21:31,470 --> 01:21:29,260
the one past and even move from present

1966
01:21:34,530 --> 01:21:31,480
is sort of the lack of evidentiary

1967
01:21:36,570 --> 01:21:34,540
standards that I saw from not properly

1968
01:21:38,280 --> 01:21:36,580
validating who the witness is not even

1969
01:21:41,220 --> 01:21:38,290
asking for something as simple as an ID

1970
01:21:43,470 --> 01:21:41,230
so I think that you know what we're

1971
01:21:45,690 --> 01:21:43,480
seeing here is that people are reporting

1972
01:21:47,760 --> 01:21:45,700
or MUFON the reporting system we don't

1973
01:21:49,530 --> 01:21:47,770
know how much of what's in there are

1974
01:21:52,320 --> 01:21:49,540
real reports of they're just bogus

1975
01:21:54,390 --> 01:21:52,330
reports and we don't know how much that

1976
01:21:56,610 --> 01:21:54,400
system being used by the powers would be

1977
01:21:57,930 --> 01:21:56,620
for this information well the first part

1978
01:21:59,820 --> 01:21:57,940
is the issue of concern which of course

1979
01:22:01,890 --> 01:21:59,830
validation of reports before you even

1980
01:22:03,870 --> 01:22:01,900
decide if there's a mystery to be solved

1981
01:22:05,760 --> 01:22:03,880
you've got go through the stuff that's

1982
01:22:08,190 --> 01:22:05,770
not there but if MUFON doesn't have

1983
01:22:09,750 --> 01:22:08,200
investigative resources you know they

1984
01:22:11,670 --> 01:22:09,760
have just enough money except for this

1985
01:22:14,070 --> 01:22:11,680
project to kind of keep the thing going

1986
01:22:16,469 --> 01:22:14,080
there depending on state volunteers to

1987
01:22:18,449 --> 01:22:16,479
do the local investigation and

1988
01:22:20,539 --> 01:22:18,459
other aspect of course is training and

1989
01:22:23,879 --> 01:22:20,549
of course we have this kind of very

1990
01:22:25,619 --> 01:22:23,889
basic training but are the people who

1991
01:22:27,809 --> 01:22:25,629
join MUFON and want to become

1992
01:22:29,849 --> 01:22:27,819
investigators do they get training

1993
01:22:32,699 --> 01:22:29,859
sufficient to allow them to really do

1994
01:22:34,709 --> 01:22:32,709
anything sort of it's pretty much self

1995
01:22:37,439 --> 01:22:34,719
training MUFON has an investigators

1996
01:22:39,089 --> 01:22:37,449
manual that they sell and new

1997
01:22:41,519 --> 01:22:39,099
investigators will study that and then

1998
01:22:43,019 --> 01:22:41,529
take a test and that's sort of the

1999
01:22:46,229 --> 01:22:43,029
extent of their certification that

2000
01:22:48,629 --> 01:22:46,239
there's no real requirement for training

2001
01:22:53,429 --> 01:22:48,639
or having a continuing education of any

2002
01:22:56,339 --> 01:22:53,439
sort I think for me no the big problem

2003
01:22:57,629 --> 01:22:56,349
is there the methodology being used when

2004
01:23:00,989 --> 01:22:57,639
you have investigators going out to the

2005
01:23:03,929 --> 01:23:00,999
field and they don't actually verify

2006
01:23:06,449 --> 01:23:03,939
witness identity I think a lot of times

2007
01:23:08,129 --> 01:23:06,459
in the past we've pretty much accepted

2008
01:23:10,529 --> 01:23:08,139
at face value that somebody reporting a

2009
01:23:11,939 --> 01:23:10,539
UFO was an honest person well how do we

2010
01:23:13,649 --> 01:23:11,949
know who these people really are if

2011
01:23:16,469 --> 01:23:13,659
we're not asking for any sort of

2012
01:23:17,909 --> 01:23:16,479
identification you know just basic stuff

2013
01:23:20,999 --> 01:23:17,919
that you would see in law enforcement

2014
01:23:22,919 --> 01:23:21,009
and then somebody reporting you know a

2015
01:23:27,029 --> 01:23:22,929
crime or something out of the ordinary

2016
01:23:28,289 --> 01:23:27,039
Wow I mean that's investigation 101 you

2017
01:23:31,679 --> 01:23:28,299
have to verify who it is that you're

2018
01:23:34,409 --> 01:23:31,689
talking to I would think that's it's a

2019
01:23:36,689 --> 01:23:34,419
formality but you know it definitely has

2020
01:23:38,789 --> 01:23:36,699
to be done oh absolutely and when we

2021
01:23:40,589 --> 01:23:38,799
know that there are our disinformation

2022
01:23:42,749 --> 01:23:40,599
agents out there we know that there are

2023
01:23:45,059 --> 01:23:42,759
folks in the government in fact when we

2024
01:23:46,679 --> 01:23:45,069
move from past project you know and let

2025
01:23:49,589 --> 01:23:46,689
me ask you that let me ask you to

2026
01:23:52,589 --> 01:23:49,599
explain that better okay before we go on

2027
01:23:56,029 --> 01:23:52,599
we know how do we know we have this

2028
01:23:58,949 --> 01:23:56,039
disinformation group of agents well

2029
01:24:01,469 --> 01:23:58,959
because I've been the subject of that in

2030
01:24:03,299 --> 01:24:01,479
other words we've had people what would

2031
01:24:05,359 --> 01:24:03,309
give an example for example on MUFON x'

2032
01:24:07,829 --> 01:24:05,369
message board which is now defunct

2033
01:24:11,009 --> 01:24:07,839
we had people posting on there saying

2034
01:24:14,459 --> 01:24:11,019
I'm a former MUFON member and I believe

2035
01:24:18,209 --> 01:24:14,469
that MUFON is going to hell in a

2036
01:24:19,679 --> 01:24:18,219
handbasket and essentially criticize the

2037
01:24:21,569 --> 01:24:19,689
move on to no end well when I turn

2038
01:24:23,279 --> 01:24:21,579
around and say hey as a former member

2039
01:24:25,439 --> 01:24:23,289
can you give me your name and give me my

2040
01:24:27,449 --> 01:24:25,449
ID so I can check up on you when they

2041
01:24:29,489 --> 01:24:27,459
didn't show up on the board again so one

2042
01:24:29,760 --> 01:24:29,499
you know called it the carpet in me and

2043
01:24:32,730 --> 01:24:29,770
they

2044
01:24:34,290 --> 01:24:32,740
actually confirm their identity well

2045
01:24:36,930 --> 01:24:34,300
they're not there we're just talking

2046
01:24:38,460 --> 01:24:36,940
folk strolling around on message boards

2047
01:24:41,280 --> 01:24:38,470
these are people making specific claims

2048
01:24:43,380 --> 01:24:41,290
so it seems to me that's sort of Agent

2049
01:24:46,380 --> 01:24:43,390
Provocateur that I talked about in my my

2050
01:24:49,230 --> 01:24:46,390
blog another example would be during the

2051
01:24:51,090 --> 01:24:49,240
MUFON vas project I had a gentleman call

2052
01:24:55,830 --> 01:24:51,100
up claiming to be an Air Force colonel

2053
01:24:59,580 --> 01:24:55,840
and out in Vegas no less and saying hey

2054
01:25:01,980 --> 01:24:59,590
we're lucky to send out our MUFON start

2055
01:25:05,010 --> 01:25:01,990
came here because we think that there's

2056
01:25:06,480 --> 01:25:05,020
UFO activity over Vegas and the first

2057
01:25:07,770 --> 01:25:06,490
thing I said is well before we send out

2058
01:25:09,930 --> 01:25:07,780
our start why don't you tell me a little

2059
01:25:11,580 --> 01:25:09,940
bit more about your background as an Air

2060
01:25:15,300 --> 01:25:11,590
Force colonel to which he then hung up

2061
01:25:16,950 --> 01:25:15,310
so we we have these folks these strange

2062
01:25:17,580 --> 01:25:16,960
characters that pop up out of the

2063
01:25:20,130 --> 01:25:17,590
woodwork

2064
01:25:22,500 --> 01:25:20,140
making claims the claims never pan out

2065
01:25:24,000 --> 01:25:22,510
and I don't think there's folks out

2066
01:25:26,370 --> 01:25:24,010
there that do this for fun

2067
01:25:28,860 --> 01:25:26,380
I think this it's purposely being done

2068
01:25:31,050 --> 01:25:28,870
to sort of keep us on our toes and it

2069
01:25:34,500 --> 01:25:31,060
set us down the wrong rabbit holes went

2070
01:25:35,840 --> 01:25:34,510
the muddy the waters were in ouch I mean

2071
01:25:38,760 --> 01:25:35,850
let me think

2072
01:25:44,430 --> 01:25:38,770
Colonels Air Force Colonels in Las Vegas

2073
01:25:46,740 --> 01:25:44,440
oh I can think of one I think was

2074
01:25:51,090 --> 01:25:46,750
described as the new spook capital of

2075
01:25:55,560 --> 01:25:51,100
the world and and whereas Bass's

2076
01:26:00,660 --> 01:25:55,570
headquarters in Las Vegas mmm funny how

2077
01:26:02,520 --> 01:26:00,670
that works well you know James I you

2078
01:26:03,540 --> 01:26:02,530
know one one question that's kind of

2079
01:26:06,750 --> 01:26:03,550
been looming over this entire

2080
01:26:08,370 --> 01:26:06,760
conversation is is you know other than

2081
01:26:10,590 --> 01:26:08,380
clearing your name and really trying to

2082
01:26:12,420 --> 01:26:10,600
set the record straight I mean what can

2083
01:26:16,140 --> 01:26:12,430
you possibly hope to accomplish by

2084
01:26:19,560 --> 01:26:16,150
coming out publicly and laying your

2085
01:26:22,670 --> 01:26:19,570
version of events which I have been able

2086
01:26:25,410 --> 01:26:22,680
to you know in my own way in my own

2087
01:26:27,030 --> 01:26:25,420
back-channel research you know I've been

2088
01:26:29,940 --> 01:26:27,040
able to verify some of the claims that

2089
01:26:33,680 --> 01:26:29,950
you're making here at least to a

2090
01:26:36,030 --> 01:26:33,690
journalistic standard and what do you

2091
01:26:38,939 --> 01:26:36,040
what do you think needs to be done with

2092
01:26:41,100 --> 01:26:38,949
MUFON I mean what could possibly

2093
01:26:44,029 --> 01:26:41,110
what good can come from you coming

2094
01:26:46,109 --> 01:26:44,039
forward like this well I think that

2095
01:26:50,370 --> 01:26:46,119
hopefully the good that can come out of

2096
01:26:51,930 --> 01:26:50,380
it is the membership can sort of voice

2097
01:26:54,569 --> 01:26:51,940
their opinion about what's happening

2098
01:26:57,509 --> 01:26:54,579
within their organization because the

2099
01:27:00,060 --> 01:26:57,519
the current MUFON board with any sort of

2100
01:27:01,859 --> 01:27:00,070
lack of ethics and principles they're

2101
01:27:03,419 --> 01:27:01,869
gonna sink the organization before long

2102
01:27:06,299 --> 01:27:03,429
I think they're gonna lose their

2103
01:27:09,839 --> 01:27:06,309
nonprofit status I think that his word

2104
01:27:12,109 --> 01:27:09,849
gets out that of all of these back

2105
01:27:14,969 --> 01:27:12,119
behind the door deal over third parties

2106
01:27:16,680 --> 01:27:14,979
and state directors being let go because

2107
01:27:20,160 --> 01:27:16,690
they voice dissent but people are gonna

2108
01:27:22,739 --> 01:27:20,170
stop trusting and move on as the play

2109
01:27:24,810 --> 01:27:22,749
stays for their UFO reports and then the

2110
01:27:26,759 --> 01:27:24,820
bottom line is MUFON is a good

2111
01:27:29,009 --> 01:27:26,769
organization and there are a lot of good

2112
01:27:30,390 --> 01:27:29,019
volunteers but the problem is that is

2113
01:27:32,660 --> 01:27:30,400
the current leadership so I'm we're

2114
01:27:35,239 --> 01:27:32,670
hoping I'm hoping that the leadership

2115
01:27:37,439 --> 01:27:35,249
either amends its ways or your place

2116
01:27:39,660 --> 01:27:37,449
well that's one thing I'm gonna ask you

2117
01:27:42,229 --> 01:27:39,670
here and you know I'm talking in general

2118
01:27:46,529 --> 01:27:42,239
here the membership do they have any

2119
01:27:50,160 --> 01:27:46,539
power to vote upon directors no

2120
01:27:53,250 --> 01:27:50,170
absolutely no the directors appoint

2121
01:27:56,790 --> 01:27:53,260
directors okay so it is not a democracy

2122
01:27:59,040 --> 01:27:56,800
a lot of democracy okay so basically the

2123
01:28:01,319 --> 01:27:59,050
only way you can vote is with your feet

2124
01:28:03,629 --> 01:28:01,329
you don't renew your membership and so

2125
01:28:06,500 --> 01:28:03,639
the organization can't get funding so

2126
01:28:09,089 --> 01:28:06,510
the organization disappears absolutely

2127
01:28:12,149 --> 01:28:09,099
so is that your intent here I mean how

2128
01:28:15,479 --> 01:28:12,159
can you make MUFON improve if you have a

2129
01:28:19,259 --> 01:28:15,489
director and a staff of directors and a

2130
01:28:20,969 --> 01:28:19,269
international director who you know has

2131
01:28:22,529 --> 01:28:20,979
this particular point of view and

2132
01:28:23,759 --> 01:28:22,539
approach this is what they want to do is

2133
01:28:26,669 --> 01:28:23,769
smiley or the highway

2134
01:28:28,560 --> 01:28:26,679
how do you change that well you can't

2135
01:28:30,180 --> 01:28:28,570
change that so the bottom line is it's

2136
01:28:32,520 --> 01:28:30,190
up to the MUFON board to decide whether

2137
01:28:37,020 --> 01:28:32,530
they're gonna change or not if they're

2138
01:28:38,790 --> 01:28:37,030
going to you know disregard what the

2139
01:28:40,620 --> 01:28:38,800
membership is saying and sort of just

2140
01:28:43,109 --> 01:28:40,630
listen to their to their own peers on

2141
01:28:44,520 --> 01:28:43,119
the board I think I think what's going

2142
01:28:48,419 --> 01:28:44,530
to happen is that they're gonna see a

2143
01:28:51,840 --> 01:28:48,429
significant drop in in membership and

2144
01:28:53,640 --> 01:28:51,850
also what we're going to see is the IRS

2145
01:28:55,050 --> 01:28:53,650
breathing down their neck wondering why

2146
01:28:58,050 --> 01:28:55,060
they're not performing their mission

2147
01:29:00,900 --> 01:28:58,060
serving the public well that's another

2148
01:29:03,840 --> 01:29:00,910
thing to hear is the IRS even gonna care

2149
01:29:06,330 --> 01:29:03,850
you know this is just a UFO organization

2150
01:29:07,860 --> 01:29:06,340
big deal it's a bunch of crazies they

2151
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have to really do something that's

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blatantly illegal I mean if you went

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through every one of these nonprofit

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organizations I'm sure you're gonna find

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a lot of really weird stuff going on but

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it's very seldom and it has to be really

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blatant for the IRS to really care about

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what they're doing how they're doing and

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whether to withdraw their certification

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O'Brien I'm gene Steinberg you're in the

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[Music]

2276
01:34:28,509 --> 01:34:26,020
James carry on our guest Chris O'Brien

2277
01:34:30,969 --> 01:34:28,519
the co-host I'm gene Steinberg you're in

2278
01:34:33,040 --> 01:34:30,979
the para cast you know when we announced

2279
01:34:36,009 --> 01:34:33,050
your appearance on the para cast James

2280
01:34:37,810 --> 01:34:36,019
we mentioned this in our forums and a

2281
01:34:40,149 --> 01:34:37,820
lot of questions have been asked and

2282
01:34:42,189 --> 01:34:40,159
maybe Chris you can pick up on some of

2283
01:34:43,929 --> 01:34:42,199
those questions and follow through some

2284
01:34:45,640 --> 01:34:43,939
of the areas we haven't covered so far I

2285
01:34:47,080 --> 01:34:45,650
can do that I wouldn't know where to

2286
01:34:50,169 --> 01:34:47,090
start I mean we've covered a lot of

2287
01:34:52,270 --> 01:34:50,179
ground so you know some of the questions

2288
01:34:55,000 --> 01:34:52,280
have already been addressed but let me

2289
01:34:58,149 --> 01:34:55,010
go here real quick and well I'm going to

2290
01:35:00,939 --> 01:34:58,159
the question thread here James I have

2291
01:35:03,429 --> 01:35:00,949
been watching and reading and watching

2292
01:35:06,520 --> 01:35:03,439
you and listening to you on podcasts

2293
01:35:09,729 --> 01:35:06,530
over the past year and I really get a

2294
01:35:12,580 --> 01:35:09,739
sense that you've become in a sense more

2295
01:35:14,620 --> 01:35:12,590
conservative and more skeptical over you

2296
01:35:16,779 --> 01:35:14,630
know the entirety of the UFO phenomenon

2297
01:35:18,640 --> 01:35:16,789
why don't you give us a little idea of

2298
01:35:20,469 --> 01:35:18,650
where your head's at I mean you were

2299
01:35:23,140 --> 01:35:20,479
there in the hotseat largest and oldest

2300
01:35:26,410 --> 01:35:23,150
civilian organization you know logging

2301
01:35:28,689 --> 01:35:26,420
reports of UFOs and so you had a you

2302
01:35:31,330 --> 01:35:28,699
know a front line sort of view on it how

2303
01:35:34,029 --> 01:35:31,340
is this all to do thinking I want to

2304
01:35:36,339 --> 01:35:34,039
kind of give us a summation of where

2305
01:35:38,679 --> 01:35:36,349
your head is at right now in terms of

2306
01:35:42,370 --> 01:35:38,689
identifying this phenomenon and in your

2307
01:35:46,560 --> 01:35:42,380
feelings about it well I think that over

2308
01:35:49,509 --> 01:35:46,570
the years especially when I was in

2309
01:35:52,089 --> 01:35:49,519
national director of MUFON I was sort of

2310
01:35:55,750 --> 01:35:52,099
a sort of observation though just trying

2311
01:35:58,600 --> 01:35:55,760
to understand what was going on who was

2312
01:36:00,819 --> 01:35:58,610
involved what was happening and the more

2313
01:36:03,699 --> 01:36:00,829
I started to observe the more I got the

2314
01:36:06,580 --> 01:36:03,709
feeling that what I was seeing was like

2315
01:36:08,199 --> 01:36:06,590
a magic show in Vegas where you go and

2316
01:36:10,060 --> 01:36:08,209
he didn't know any better that you were

2317
01:36:11,739 --> 01:36:10,070
watching a magic show you would be

2318
01:36:13,450 --> 01:36:11,749
shocked to hell of what you were seeing

2319
01:36:15,220 --> 01:36:13,460
on stage I think

2320
01:36:16,870 --> 01:36:15,230
that's sort of the feeling I was getting

2321
01:36:19,479 --> 01:36:16,880
wild in the organization that it was a

2322
01:36:21,490 --> 01:36:19,489
lot of smoke and mirrors I wasn't seeing

2323
01:36:23,830 --> 01:36:21,500
any real hard scientific evidence I

2324
01:36:26,080 --> 01:36:23,840
would seen a lot of deception a lot of

2325
01:36:28,360 --> 01:36:26,090
stories that never panned out a lot of

2326
01:36:31,270 --> 01:36:28,370
characters that never panned out a lot

2327
01:36:33,940 --> 01:36:31,280
of involvement by these what I call the

2328
01:36:35,229 --> 01:36:33,950
usual suspects I seem to have one foot

2329
01:36:38,140 --> 01:36:35,239
in the intelligence community and the

2330
01:36:40,930 --> 01:36:38,150
other foot in ecology and trying to make

2331
01:36:42,250 --> 01:36:40,940
it all add up it just didn't so so I

2332
01:36:44,470 --> 01:36:42,260
thought you know I'm gonna start digging

2333
01:36:45,910 --> 01:36:44,480
I'm doing my own research and I did some

2334
01:36:48,430 --> 01:36:45,920
original research that goes all the way

2335
01:36:51,459 --> 01:36:48,440
back to 1947 when this phenomena started

2336
01:36:54,040 --> 01:36:51,469
releasing the public eye and as I

2337
01:36:55,990 --> 01:36:54,050
started doing my research what I thought

2338
01:36:58,860 --> 01:36:56,000
I was hey I've stumbled onto something

2339
01:37:02,200 --> 01:36:58,870
here that's that's big and it's not

2340
01:37:04,900 --> 01:37:02,210
alien related it's humans deceiving

2341
01:37:06,400 --> 01:37:04,910
humans on a grand scale something that

2342
01:37:09,400 --> 01:37:06,410
goes all the way back to the very

2343
01:37:13,479 --> 01:37:09,410
beginning back to 19th June and July

2344
01:37:15,400 --> 01:37:13,489
1947 so when I left MUFON my thought was

2345
01:37:17,229 --> 01:37:15,410
rather than try to tackle the whole

2346
01:37:19,570 --> 01:37:17,239
subject I'm just gonna tackle this small

2347
01:37:22,300 --> 01:37:19,580
area and then team on time frame because

2348
01:37:26,229 --> 01:37:22,310
I my feeling is that Kenneth Arnold

2349
01:37:28,300 --> 01:37:26,239
emori Island Roswell all events that

2350
01:37:31,030 --> 01:37:28,310
happened in there documented there there

2351
01:37:33,340 --> 01:37:31,040
were forces there that I believe that I

2352
01:37:34,930 --> 01:37:33,350
had nothing to do with real UFOs flying

2353
01:37:36,850 --> 01:37:34,940
around I think there was something on

2354
01:37:39,400 --> 01:37:36,860
grandis every scale something we haven't

2355
01:37:42,250 --> 01:37:39,410
seen since World War two when when we

2356
01:37:43,390 --> 01:37:42,260
were deceiving da yeah power okay but

2357
01:37:44,950 --> 01:37:43,400
I'm gonna ask you one key question

2358
01:37:48,610 --> 01:37:44,960
before we go into this grand conspiracy

2359
01:37:52,150 --> 01:37:48,620
and that is you know UFO researchers can

2360
01:37:55,030 --> 01:37:52,160
point to cases going back centuries not

2361
01:37:57,190 --> 01:37:55,040
just 1947 or during World War 2 or just

2362
01:37:59,080 --> 01:37:57,200
before but going back many many years

2363
01:38:01,330 --> 01:37:59,090
you can't say that was a grand

2364
01:38:03,160 --> 01:38:01,340
conspiracy of this sort well they can

2365
01:38:04,390 --> 01:38:03,170
point to evidence they can point the

2366
01:38:07,630 --> 01:38:04,400
stories and that's all they are is

2367
01:38:10,000 --> 01:38:07,640
stories sure you can go back and say the

2368
01:38:12,130 --> 01:38:10,010
aliens built the pyramids but we have no

2369
01:38:13,840 --> 01:38:12,140
no evidence of that and just because

2370
01:38:16,690 --> 01:38:13,850
strange phenomena was being witnessed in

2371
01:38:19,600 --> 01:38:16,700
the sky it doesn't mean that it's one

2372
01:38:21,700 --> 01:38:19,610
continuous phenomena up until this day

2373
01:38:23,290 --> 01:38:21,710
so I think what happens is everybody

2374
01:38:25,569 --> 01:38:23,300
wants to throw away throw everything

2375
01:38:28,540 --> 01:38:25,579
into the large UFO bucket

2376
01:38:31,180 --> 01:38:28,550
right and that leads me that leads me to

2377
01:38:33,220 --> 01:38:31,190
question number one and this is by

2378
01:38:35,350 --> 01:38:33,230
trained observer it adjusts is this

2379
01:38:38,740 --> 01:38:35,360
subject perfectly what do you believe

2380
01:38:41,140 --> 01:38:38,750
the chances are that the various popular

2381
01:38:43,629 --> 01:38:41,150
beliefs about UFOs are primarily the

2382
01:38:48,069 --> 01:38:43,639
creations of the intelligence agencies

2383
01:38:50,470 --> 01:38:48,079
of various nations used to speak eight

2384
01:38:51,939 --> 01:38:50,480
in control information about classified

2385
01:38:54,760 --> 01:38:51,949
terrestrial technology

2386
01:38:58,270 --> 01:38:54,770
okay that's question one and if so how

2387
01:39:00,939 --> 01:38:58,280
much of what constitutes popular UFO

2388
01:39:04,959 --> 01:39:00,949
mythology should be rejected outright

2389
01:39:06,640 --> 01:39:04,969
thank you that's that's a very question

2390
01:39:09,040 --> 01:39:06,650
and so this goes back to my grand

2391
01:39:10,959 --> 01:39:09,050
deception theory my feeling is if I can

2392
01:39:14,410 --> 01:39:10,969
go back and I can prove unequivocally

2393
01:39:17,740 --> 01:39:14,420
that these three pivotal cases back in

2394
01:39:20,589 --> 01:39:17,750
1947 Kenneth Arnold Maury island in

2395
01:39:22,600 --> 01:39:20,599
Roswell those three are all grand

2396
01:39:23,439 --> 01:39:22,610
deception operations than the whole you

2397
01:39:25,629 --> 01:39:23,449
follow gee

2398
01:39:27,549 --> 01:39:25,639
house of cards is going to fall let me

2399
01:39:31,240 --> 01:39:27,559
just throw in one thing for you James I

2400
01:39:33,970 --> 01:39:31,250
think most UFO researchers agree that

2401
01:39:37,299 --> 01:39:33,980
Maury island was in the UFO case it was

2402
01:39:40,120 --> 01:39:37,309
a hoax if hey the UFO Hunters that was

2403
01:39:42,669 --> 01:39:40,130
their first episode they they've treated

2404
01:39:44,890 --> 01:39:42,679
it like it was a real event in and it

2405
01:39:46,180 --> 01:39:44,900
was legitimate well you know Kenneth

2406
01:39:48,910 --> 01:39:46,190
Arnold was brought into the

2407
01:39:52,149 --> 01:39:48,920
investigation by Ray Palmer but okay is

2408
01:39:54,189 --> 01:39:52,159
that the connection what was Kenneth

2409
01:39:55,450 --> 01:39:54,199
Arnold's involvement here was he someone

2410
01:39:58,180 --> 01:39:55,460
who made it up where he just saw

2411
01:40:00,580 --> 01:39:58,190
something well it's a good question but

2412
01:40:02,979 --> 01:40:00,590
if you look at the history and I believe

2413
01:40:05,620 --> 01:40:02,989
Kenneth Arnold was on a-z of person as

2414
01:40:07,930 --> 01:40:05,630
they come if you read his his book

2415
01:40:09,310 --> 01:40:07,940
coming in to saucers and you cross

2416
01:40:11,200 --> 01:40:09,320
compare with all of the FBI

2417
01:40:11,890 --> 01:40:11,210
documentation that was released on Long

2418
01:40:14,740 --> 01:40:11,900
Island

2419
01:40:18,250 --> 01:40:14,750
what I see is a pattern of deception

2420
01:40:22,149 --> 01:40:18,260
that in a manipulation for example when

2421
01:40:25,299 --> 01:40:22,159
when he when he flew to chuse Spokane to

2422
01:40:27,129 --> 01:40:25,309
investigate and he he shows up in town

2423
01:40:29,410 --> 01:40:27,139
and I'm sorry they called on and he

2424
01:40:32,919 --> 01:40:29,420
shows up in town and he has no place to

2425
01:40:35,109 --> 01:40:32,929
stay and he calls around and every hotel

2426
01:40:37,569 --> 01:40:35,119
is booked and lo and behold he gets to

2427
01:40:38,979 --> 01:40:37,579
the Winthrop hotel and they already have

2428
01:40:41,560 --> 01:40:38,989
a room under his name with

2429
01:40:44,140 --> 01:40:41,570
her books yeah that was down Tacoma no

2430
01:40:45,819 --> 01:40:44,150
that was in Tacoma winning right and and

2431
01:40:47,859 --> 01:40:45,829
so he gets in stays in this room

2432
01:40:50,259 --> 01:40:47,869
shares it with this Eastern Airlines

2433
01:40:52,209 --> 01:40:50,269
pilot who conveniently also was a

2434
01:40:54,759 --> 01:40:52,219
skeptic at first and all sudden headed

2435
01:40:56,500 --> 01:40:54,769
on personal sighting up in the air and

2436
01:40:58,120 --> 01:40:56,510
then conveniently enough this hotel was

2437
01:41:01,390 --> 01:40:58,130
right across the street from the UPI

2438
01:41:03,189 --> 01:41:01,400
wire my feeling is that there were

2439
01:41:07,120 --> 01:41:03,199
powers within the Air Force and maybe

2440
01:41:08,529 --> 01:41:07,130
some some some remnants of Prior Office

2441
01:41:10,870 --> 01:41:08,539
of Strategic Services that will be

2442
01:41:13,270 --> 01:41:10,880
absorbed by the Air Force that we're

2443
01:41:15,939 --> 01:41:13,280
trying to get the UFO story out onto the

2444
01:41:18,339 --> 01:41:15,949
news media and they used Kenneth Arnold

2445
01:41:19,689 --> 01:41:18,349
for that purpose so I have a feeling

2446
01:41:22,180 --> 01:41:19,699
that they were trying to push it out

2447
01:41:23,979 --> 01:41:22,190
there to create the myth in Kenneth auto

2448
01:41:26,589 --> 01:41:23,989
became the perfect conduit for that

2449
01:41:28,450 --> 01:41:26,599
because he's an honest person claims

2450
01:41:30,430 --> 01:41:28,460
they've seen something but we don't know

2451
01:41:33,370 --> 01:41:30,440
what he saw but just based on the

2452
01:41:36,459 --> 01:41:33,380
circumstances surrounding his report and

2453
01:41:38,709 --> 01:41:36,469
and the events that happened up in

2454
01:41:41,140 --> 01:41:38,719
Tacoma I'm seeing something that's very

2455
01:41:44,259 --> 01:41:41,150
odd and very strange okay let's go to

2456
01:41:47,529 --> 01:41:44,269
Roswell New Mexico okay with Roswell I

2457
01:41:51,250 --> 01:41:47,539
think it's a most folks don't even see

2458
01:41:54,129 --> 01:41:51,260
how utterly compact the time frame is so

2459
01:41:57,640 --> 01:41:54,139
here we have Kenneth Arnold reports June

2460
01:42:00,459 --> 01:41:57,650
24th this is the first UFO sighting that

2461
01:42:03,160 --> 01:42:00,469
makes the mass media and then within two

2462
01:42:05,589 --> 01:42:03,170
weeks or more over two weeks we have a

2463
01:42:07,989 --> 01:42:05,599
crashed saucer on the ground I mean this

2464
01:42:10,299 --> 01:42:07,999
just doesn't make sense and dolts what

2465
01:42:13,080 --> 01:42:10,309
also doesn't make sense is why we have

2466
01:42:15,189 --> 01:42:13,090
Roswell Army Airfield home to the 509

2467
01:42:19,029 --> 01:42:15,199
these were the folks are dropping atomic

2468
01:42:20,470 --> 01:42:19,039
bomb in Japan handpicking folks who knew

2469
01:42:22,029 --> 01:42:20,480
the importance of keeping their mouths

2470
01:42:23,979 --> 01:42:22,039
shut the importance of intelligence

2471
01:42:26,560 --> 01:42:23,989
matters yeah they put out a press

2472
01:42:29,830 --> 01:42:26,570
release so there are things like this

2473
01:42:32,799 --> 01:42:29,840
that certainly do not make sense just

2474
01:42:35,290 --> 01:42:32,809
from a logical rational point of view

2475
01:42:36,850 --> 01:42:35,300
common sense point of view and those

2476
01:42:38,560 --> 01:42:36,860
were the questions that sort of nodded

2477
01:42:41,680 --> 01:42:38,570
me in the back of my mind I just started

2478
01:42:43,419 --> 01:42:41,690
to do my own personal research is where

2479
01:42:45,580 --> 01:42:43,429
I where I started to believe what there

2480
01:42:48,100 --> 01:42:45,590
was something we are going on okay so

2481
01:42:49,930 --> 01:42:48,110
let me just ask you based on that let's

2482
01:42:51,700 --> 01:42:49,940
assume Kenneth ro just saw something we

2483
01:42:53,050 --> 01:42:51,710
don't know what it was test aircraft

2484
01:42:55,180 --> 01:42:53,060
Maury island

2485
01:42:57,280 --> 01:42:55,190
is some kind of military dissing

2486
01:42:58,900 --> 01:42:57,290
formation trick certainly rise well

2487
01:43:00,850 --> 01:42:58,910
maybe that makes sense but what were

2488
01:43:03,610 --> 01:43:00,860
they trying to hide what were they doing

2489
01:43:06,490 --> 01:43:03,620
just to bring this into the public mind

2490
01:43:09,130 --> 01:43:06,500
to sell science-fiction movies what well

2491
01:43:11,290 --> 01:43:09,140
actually I'm not sure if you gene if you

2492
01:43:15,190 --> 01:43:11,300
had a chance to read my paper that I

2493
01:43:17,590 --> 01:43:15,200
presented if we go back to mid Jim in

2494
01:43:21,580 --> 01:43:17,600
1947 there was a story that hit major

2495
01:43:23,730 --> 01:43:21,590
newspapers you can pick up actually go

2496
01:43:27,100 --> 01:43:23,740
online you can find my paper on this

2497
01:43:31,390 --> 01:43:27,110
where there was it was leaked to the

2498
01:43:32,470 --> 01:43:31,400
press that the the u.s. the Brits and a

2499
01:43:35,290 --> 01:43:32,480
New Zealand we're working on a

2500
01:43:37,900 --> 01:43:35,300
top-secret weapon that was on par with

2501
01:43:41,650 --> 01:43:37,910
the atomic bomb that was not the atomic

2502
01:43:43,690 --> 01:43:41,660
bomb and of course this hit the press it

2503
01:43:45,570 --> 01:43:43,700
all the major newspapers the press

2504
01:43:48,100 --> 01:43:45,580
started to speculate well it could be

2505
01:43:51,580 --> 01:43:48,110
they started speculating was an airborne

2506
01:43:53,410 --> 01:43:51,590
weapon and and then lo and behold two

2507
01:43:55,750 --> 01:43:53,420
weeks later we have our first UFO report

2508
01:43:57,610 --> 01:43:55,760
well what I find extremely interesting

2509
01:44:00,130 --> 01:43:57,620
is that they named true the scientists

2510
01:44:01,330 --> 01:44:00,140
he supposedly worked on this project and

2511
01:44:02,650 --> 01:44:01,340
as I started digging and doing my

2512
01:44:04,840 --> 01:44:02,660
research I found out that these

2513
01:44:06,850 --> 01:44:04,850
scientists for real people they did work

2514
01:44:09,280 --> 01:44:06,860
on a real top-secret project during

2515
01:44:10,990 --> 01:44:09,290
World War two but that project they

2516
01:44:14,110 --> 01:44:11,000
worked on was defunct

2517
01:44:16,420 --> 01:44:14,120
in 1947 yet they have the same

2518
01:44:18,760 --> 01:44:16,430
scientists claiming and in newspaper

2519
01:44:20,860 --> 01:44:18,770
articles confirming that yes that there

2520
01:44:23,260 --> 01:44:20,870
was a top-secret project on par with the

2521
01:44:25,360 --> 01:44:23,270
atomic bomb that was being currently

2522
01:44:26,830 --> 01:44:25,370
Mathon which were complete lies I'll

2523
01:44:28,810 --> 01:44:26,840
tell you was again to more of this in a

2524
01:44:30,610 --> 01:44:28,820
moment we have James carry on our

2525
01:44:36,410 --> 01:44:30,620
co-host is Chris O'Brien I'm gene

2526
01:44:41,759 --> 01:44:39,109
[Music]

2527
01:44:43,739 --> 01:44:41,769
hi this is Ted Anderson if you own an

2528
01:44:45,989 --> 01:44:43,749
Apple iPhone and love to listen to your

2529
01:44:47,759 --> 01:44:45,999
favorite programs on GCM I've got good

2530
01:44:50,100 --> 01:44:47,769
news for you I'm proud to announce that

2531
01:44:52,709 --> 01:44:50,110
GCN has a brand new iPhone app available

2532
01:44:54,629 --> 01:44:52,719
for our dedicated listeners at GC and

2533
01:44:56,729 --> 01:44:54,639
live.com listen to your favorite

2534
01:44:58,799 --> 01:44:56,739
hard-hitting GCN programs live or

2535
01:45:01,020 --> 01:44:58,809
on-demand right on your iPhone and the

2536
01:45:03,419 --> 01:45:01,030
best part the gcn iPhone app can be

2537
01:45:05,250 --> 01:45:03,429
yours absolutely free download the

2538
01:45:07,709 --> 01:45:05,260
iPhone app today by clicking on the

2539
01:45:10,560 --> 01:45:07,719
banner at GC and live.com again that's

2540
01:45:11,969 --> 01:45:10,570
GCM live.com hi this is Ted Anderson

2541
01:45:13,799 --> 01:45:11,979
have you ever wondered why banks

2542
01:45:15,569 --> 01:45:13,809
stockbrokers investment advisors won't

2543
01:45:17,939 --> 01:45:15,579
talk about gold IRAs they've been

2544
01:45:19,649 --> 01:45:17,949
available since 1986 yet the financial

2545
01:45:21,330 --> 01:45:19,659
industry won't recognize the value of

2546
01:45:23,279 --> 01:45:21,340
gold for your retirement gold has

2547
01:45:25,199 --> 01:45:23,289
outperformed paper investments yet no

2548
01:45:37,879 --> 01:45:25,209
word about IRAs if you would like to

2549
01:45:37,889 --> 01:46:02,279
806-853-9949

2550
01:46:07,100 --> 01:46:04,649
I've been up since 5:00 in the morning

2551
01:46:09,720 --> 01:46:07,110
James carrion joins us former

2552
01:46:12,509 --> 01:46:09,730
international director of MUFON were

2553
01:46:15,029 --> 01:46:12,519
exploring the revision I guess of his

2554
01:46:16,709 --> 01:46:15,039
beliefs about UFOs and his expectations

2555
01:46:18,959 --> 01:46:16,719
and what he thinks going on Chris

2556
01:46:21,180 --> 01:46:18,969
O'Brien's the co-host I'm Jean Steinberg

2557
01:46:23,700 --> 01:46:21,190
you're in the para cast parenthetically

2558
01:46:26,160 --> 01:46:23,710
years and years ago the one the only Jim

2559
01:46:29,009 --> 01:46:26,170
Mosely used to present his own earth

2560
01:46:31,290 --> 01:46:29,019
theory and he did this not because he

2561
01:46:32,879 --> 01:46:31,300
necessarily believed it but because he

2562
01:46:34,470 --> 01:46:32,889
wanted to sound different we wanted to

2563
01:46:35,580 --> 01:46:34,480
be controversial that they were all

2564
01:46:38,520 --> 01:46:35,590
secret weapons

2565
01:46:41,160 --> 01:46:38,530
so you're explaining now that we have

2566
01:46:43,290 --> 01:46:41,170
this story in the newspapers about

2567
01:46:45,930 --> 01:46:43,300
something more important than the atomic

2568
01:46:48,810 --> 01:46:45,940
bomb maybe or just as important and then

2569
01:46:51,149 --> 01:46:48,820
we hear by UFOs kind of a coverage story

2570
01:46:53,580 --> 01:46:51,159
so that the game here that UFOs were

2571
01:46:56,009 --> 01:46:53,590
created as a cover story also we were

2572
01:46:58,200 --> 01:46:56,019
getting all this technology from the

2573
01:46:59,910 --> 01:46:58,210
Germans at the time too we were playing

2574
01:47:02,129 --> 01:46:59,920
with rockets and stuff like that is that

2575
01:47:04,169 --> 01:47:02,139
part of it well keep in mind that

2576
01:47:07,910 --> 01:47:04,179
there's there can be multiple uses for

2577
01:47:10,830 --> 01:47:07,920
the UFO cover my belief is that back in

2578
01:47:13,140 --> 01:47:10,840
1947 this deception operation wasn't to

2579
01:47:15,720 --> 01:47:13,150
protect a real weapon I think it was

2580
01:47:17,009 --> 01:47:15,730
information warfare we were trying to

2581
01:47:18,750 --> 01:47:17,019
convince the Russians that we had

2582
01:47:21,509 --> 01:47:18,760
something they did not you got to

2583
01:47:24,979 --> 01:47:21,519
remember that back in 1947 this is right

2584
01:47:27,899 --> 01:47:24,989
before the McCarthy era we knew based on

2585
01:47:30,299 --> 01:47:27,909
Soviet spies our were defecting that

2586
01:47:32,549 --> 01:47:30,309
every aspect of American government from

2587
01:47:35,910 --> 01:47:32,559
the State Department to the office of

2588
01:47:38,790 --> 01:47:35,920
services to the White House there works

2589
01:47:42,120 --> 01:47:38,800
fine there we don't know who eyes were

2590
01:47:45,509 --> 01:47:42,130
we do know now that a infiltrated every

2591
01:47:47,490 --> 01:47:45,519
part of society and especially are the

2592
01:47:49,560 --> 01:47:47,500
top-secret Manhattan Project so I think

2593
01:47:52,319 --> 01:47:49,570
about these counterintelligence folks

2594
01:47:54,270 --> 01:47:52,329
said how do we how do we expel these

2595
01:47:55,830 --> 01:47:54,280
fives that are out there well let's

2596
01:47:57,540 --> 01:47:55,840
pretend we have something let's try to

2597
01:47:59,879 --> 01:47:57,550
make it sound like we had something the

2598
01:48:02,100 --> 01:47:59,889
Russians down and we'll see who takes an

2599
01:48:03,000 --> 01:48:02,110
interest in that so I think maybe at the

2600
01:48:04,919 --> 01:48:03,010
beginning was just for

2601
01:48:08,279 --> 01:48:04,929
counterintelligence reasons sounds like

2602
01:48:10,770 --> 01:48:08,289
a public sting exactly and it's kind of

2603
01:48:12,810 --> 01:48:10,780
blown out of control over 60 years well

2604
01:48:14,549 --> 01:48:12,820
I think it's I think they said well that

2605
01:48:16,180 --> 01:48:14,559
was that was very effective I wonder how

2606
01:48:18,360 --> 01:48:16,190
else we can use this UFO

2607
01:48:21,600 --> 01:48:18,370
field so I think it from there it

2608
01:48:23,890 --> 01:48:21,610
everything I'm psychological warfare to

2609
01:48:25,920 --> 01:48:23,900
protecting real projects from the

2610
01:48:29,170 --> 01:48:25,930
stealth fighter jet stealth bomber

2611
01:48:32,920 --> 01:48:29,180
so to mind-control experiments who knows

2612
01:48:34,689 --> 01:48:32,930
what I'm gonna mention something which

2613
01:48:36,610 --> 01:48:34,699
occurs to me I mentioned this before on

2614
01:48:37,930 --> 01:48:36,620
the show and nobody wants to hear it but

2615
01:48:40,180 --> 01:48:37,940
I'm going to mention it again before

2616
01:48:40,720 --> 01:48:40,190
Chris asks more questions from our

2617
01:48:44,320 --> 01:48:40,730
audience

2618
01:48:46,570 --> 01:48:44,330
and that is consider that Barney and

2619
01:48:49,450 --> 01:48:46,580
Betty hill lived near a military base

2620
01:48:51,610 --> 01:48:49,460
and then consider their close friends

2621
01:48:54,010 --> 01:48:51,620
were in the military and consider the

2622
01:48:57,010 --> 01:48:54,020
possibility that that was an effort at

2623
01:48:59,740 --> 01:48:57,020
mind-control the abduction the I guess

2624
01:49:02,110 --> 01:48:59,750
the granddaddy or grandma of all

2625
01:49:04,300 --> 01:49:02,120
abductions the Barney and Betty hill

2626
01:49:08,380 --> 01:49:04,310
case what do you think well I think it's

2627
01:49:10,860 --> 01:49:08,390
a it's a possibility if you look at some

2628
01:49:14,729 --> 01:49:10,870
of the various things the CIA was doing

2629
01:49:17,260 --> 01:49:14,739
in terms of mind control and

2630
01:49:21,130 --> 01:49:17,270
administering drugs without people's

2631
01:49:27,630 --> 01:49:21,140
consent sending Gottlieb for Dietrich

2632
01:49:30,729 --> 01:49:27,640
MKULTRA exactly these folks that moral

2633
01:49:32,470 --> 01:49:30,739
conscience who knows what the limit

2634
01:49:36,910 --> 01:49:32,480
limits were and who knows what we're

2635
01:49:38,620 --> 01:49:36,920
doing so it's all there possible mmm so

2636
01:49:40,870 --> 01:49:38,630
they can have control order the

2637
01:49:42,430 --> 01:49:40,880
government say hey this worked pretty

2638
01:49:44,680 --> 01:49:42,440
good we're just gonna continue playing

2639
01:49:45,700 --> 01:49:44,690
these games for whatever reason whatever

2640
01:49:48,130 --> 01:49:45,710
we have to hide

2641
01:49:50,920 --> 01:49:48,140
well the question is who is in control

2642
01:49:55,209 --> 01:49:50,930
is it is reeling for three-letter

2643
01:49:56,350 --> 01:49:55,219
agencies out there or has this control

2644
01:50:05,410 --> 01:49:56,360
is now within the military-industrial

2645
01:50:09,070 --> 01:50:05,420
complex it's kind of hard to file an FOI

2646
01:50:11,050 --> 01:50:09,080
a McDonnell Douglas of Lockheed or

2647
01:50:13,209 --> 01:50:11,060
Boeing or whomever

2648
01:50:14,860 --> 01:50:13,219
well let's switch gears here and go back

2649
01:50:19,800 --> 01:50:14,870
we've got a lot of questions James

2650
01:50:21,970 --> 01:50:19,810
actually just as an aside here your

2651
01:50:24,130 --> 01:50:21,980
appearance here on the podcast has

2652
01:50:27,209 --> 01:50:24,140
probably generated more questions I

2653
01:50:29,710 --> 01:50:27,219
think of for a guest by our forum

2654
01:50:31,420 --> 01:50:29,720
posters than any other guests that we

2655
01:50:35,920 --> 01:50:31,430
at least in the last six or eight months

2656
01:50:38,080 --> 01:50:35,930
and a lot of it is centered on the

2657
01:50:41,380 --> 01:50:38,090
relationship with Robert Bigelow and

2658
01:50:44,230 --> 01:50:41,390
ambass and MUFON so I want to just fire

2659
01:50:46,330 --> 01:50:44,240
a couple of these real quick at you they

2660
01:50:47,650 --> 01:50:46,340
give us a potentially the answer will

2661
01:50:52,270 --> 01:50:47,660
give us a little bit more insight into

2662
01:50:54,010 --> 01:50:52,280
the relationship first off from srl we

2663
01:50:58,230 --> 01:50:54,020
have how many case files had been

2664
01:51:01,360 --> 01:50:58,240
amassed when mr. Bigelow acquired MUFON

2665
01:51:04,300 --> 01:51:01,370
do you have a you know some sort of

2666
01:51:06,400 --> 01:51:04,310
number in other words he he was given

2667
01:51:08,830 --> 01:51:06,410
access to the entire database just just

2668
01:51:12,090 --> 01:51:08,840
as anyone is but can he somehow

2669
01:51:14,920 --> 01:51:12,100
copyright or have any proprietary

2670
01:51:19,330 --> 01:51:14,930
control over that information that data

2671
01:51:21,640 --> 01:51:19,340
no has the access to the data was just

2672
01:51:23,260 --> 01:51:21,650
for the duration with the project so any

2673
01:51:25,960 --> 01:51:23,270
historical case files that we

2674
01:51:28,210 --> 01:51:25,970
transmitted to them or their online

2675
01:51:31,360 --> 01:51:28,220
access to the current King's files

2676
01:51:33,190 --> 01:51:31,370
around the website they was not sold to

2677
01:51:35,320 --> 01:51:33,200
them they were given access to those

2678
01:51:36,820 --> 01:51:35,330
files and that access was terminated

2679
01:51:39,040 --> 01:51:36,830
when the contractors came in

2680
01:51:40,810 --> 01:51:39,050
okay well I you know gene probably can

2681
01:51:43,660 --> 01:51:40,820
comment a little bit more than I can on

2682
01:51:46,030 --> 01:51:43,670
this I mean if you're given access to a

2683
01:51:49,000 --> 01:51:46,040
database you got the database basically

2684
01:51:50,470 --> 01:51:49,010
so as soon as they you know they already

2685
01:51:52,900 --> 01:51:50,480
had everything that they needed they

2686
01:51:54,250 --> 01:51:52,910
just weren't being fed at least to our

2687
01:51:57,850 --> 01:51:54,260
knowledge they weren't being fed fresh

2688
01:52:00,250 --> 01:51:57,860
cases but but they have access to all

2689
01:52:02,140 --> 01:52:00,260
the data that had been acquired over 40

2690
01:52:03,520 --> 01:52:02,150
years correct let me ask you a quick

2691
01:52:05,320 --> 01:52:03,530
question about that too but how its

2692
01:52:08,020 --> 01:52:05,330
organized is this one single database

2693
01:52:10,980 --> 01:52:08,030
like an access or a FileMaker Pro

2694
01:52:13,480 --> 01:52:10,990
database with everything on it no

2695
01:52:16,900 --> 01:52:13,490
distinction between the historical Case

2696
01:52:18,280 --> 01:52:16,910
Files which were the paper-based once

2697
01:52:20,890 --> 01:52:18,290
Indian falcon Ahmed said we've been

2698
01:52:22,690 --> 01:52:20,900
digitally scanned and stored in Adobe

2699
01:52:24,910 --> 01:52:22,700
PDF format those are not accessible

2700
01:52:25,990 --> 01:52:24,920
online okay well I think that was the

2701
01:52:31,060 --> 01:52:26,000
question

2702
01:52:32,890 --> 01:52:31,070
now a since Bigelow has been you know

2703
01:52:35,560 --> 01:52:32,900
became involved with the bass project

2704
01:52:37,720 --> 01:52:35,570
and the star teams and the rest of it is

2705
01:52:39,610 --> 01:52:37,730
there any way that he can exercise any

2706
01:52:41,590 --> 01:52:39,620
sort of proprietary control over that

2707
01:52:42,910 --> 01:52:41,600
data I think that's the second part of

2708
01:52:45,700 --> 01:52:42,920
this question

2709
01:52:49,470 --> 01:52:45,710
no absolutely not if that intellectual

2710
01:52:53,649 --> 01:52:49,480
property belongs exclusively to move on

2711
01:52:55,930 --> 01:52:53,659
okay okay that's that's good to know

2712
01:52:58,419 --> 01:52:55,940
there's a couple more bear with me here

2713
01:53:01,180 --> 01:52:58,429
have has move on to your knowledge

2714
01:53:06,120 --> 01:53:01,190
conducted any sort of pattern

2715
01:53:09,490 --> 01:53:06,130
recognition program or any sort of

2716
01:53:11,109 --> 01:53:09,500
crunching the data so to speak in other

2717
01:53:13,120 --> 01:53:11,119
words the question is has MUFON at

2718
01:53:16,240 --> 01:53:13,130
anytime search for patterns in the data

2719
01:53:18,780 --> 01:53:16,250
and if so what was revealed that's the

2720
01:53:21,479 --> 01:53:18,790
follow-up question well the only

2721
01:53:24,729 --> 01:53:21,489
crunching in the data that I've seen

2722
01:53:29,500 --> 01:53:24,739
happen in the past actually had to do

2723
01:53:30,729 --> 01:53:29,510
with abductions there was there were two

2724
01:53:32,200 --> 01:53:30,739
different projects you know if I were

2725
01:53:35,050 --> 01:53:32,210
I'm almost called the abduction

2726
01:53:38,620 --> 01:53:35,060
transcription project where a lot of

2727
01:53:43,390 --> 01:53:38,630
these hypnotherapist counselors who had

2728
01:53:45,700 --> 01:53:43,400
alleged abductees they would give MUFON

2729
01:53:46,300 --> 01:53:45,710
their session transcripts if no such

2730
01:53:49,330 --> 01:53:46,310
sessions

2731
01:53:51,490 --> 01:53:49,340
loofa would transcribe those admit the

2732
01:53:53,169 --> 01:53:51,500
witness information and then compare all

2733
01:53:55,479 --> 01:53:53,179
of these different events especially to

2734
01:53:57,370 --> 01:53:55,489
see what sort of patterns emerged that

2735
01:54:01,030 --> 01:53:57,380
was that was one project the other

2736
01:54:03,550 --> 01:54:01,040
project was the abduction monitoring

2737
01:54:05,830 --> 01:54:03,560
project where we put these little black

2738
01:54:10,840 --> 01:54:05,840
box devices that were putting my job

2739
01:54:13,419 --> 01:54:10,850
back t-phones environment was this

2740
01:54:19,800 --> 01:54:13,429
technology supplied by bass no no this

2741
01:54:23,530 --> 01:54:19,810
is way before this was after meds

2742
01:54:25,720 --> 01:54:23,540
terminated supportive MUFON and this was

2743
01:54:27,760 --> 01:54:25,730
funded by a third party so I think it

2744
01:54:29,680 --> 01:54:27,770
was a three year project where they put

2745
01:54:32,290 --> 01:54:29,690
these black boxes and the collected data

2746
01:54:34,510 --> 01:54:32,300
from these advocacy homes and then the

2747
01:54:36,310 --> 01:54:34,520
abductees would forward job Betty's

2748
01:54:38,410 --> 01:54:36,320
within a journal whenever they thought

2749
01:54:40,750 --> 01:54:38,420
they had an objection experience so the

2750
01:54:41,890 --> 01:54:40,760
the goal of the project was to try to

2751
01:54:44,500 --> 01:54:41,900
figure out there was a correlation

2752
01:54:46,479 --> 01:54:44,510
between when the abductee thought they

2753
01:54:49,530 --> 01:54:46,489
had an experience and a change in their

2754
01:54:53,500 --> 01:54:49,540
ambient environment changing temperature

2755
01:54:55,270 --> 01:54:53,510
changing gravity or whatever else and so

2756
01:54:57,700 --> 01:54:55,280
all this data was collected so we have

2757
01:54:59,169 --> 01:54:57,710
all this data in hand but then the

2758
01:55:01,030 --> 01:54:59,179
funding ran out and they could never

2759
01:55:01,870 --> 01:55:01,040
crunch about data so it's it's a game

2760
01:55:04,629 --> 01:55:01,880
that still need to be statistically

2761
01:55:06,640 --> 01:55:04,639
analyzed is that something people can go

2762
01:55:09,010 --> 01:55:06,650
online get this data and do something

2763
01:55:10,780 --> 01:55:09,020
with it no absolutely not it's the data

2764
01:55:13,570 --> 01:55:10,790
is actually is being controlled by this

2765
01:55:16,990 --> 01:55:13,580
some three or four studies because they

2766
01:55:19,419 --> 01:55:17,000
were a partner with MUFON so mark Barger

2767
01:55:25,810 --> 01:55:19,429
I'm not sure if Mark still with Koufos

2768
01:55:27,939 --> 01:55:25,820
boy and we'll get into more of this in a

2769
01:55:30,250 --> 01:55:27,949
moment we have James Kerry on the

2770
01:55:39,459 --> 01:55:30,260
co-host is Chris O'Brien I'm gene

2771
01:55:41,320 --> 01:55:39,469
Steinberg you're in the power cuz you

2772
01:55:43,390 --> 01:55:41,330
expect professional service from your

2773
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doctor your accountant and even the girl

2774
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who takes your morning coffee order why

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2786
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strange and unknown fate brings you the

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01:56:18,640 --> 01:56:16,849
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2788
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like angels and miracles psychic

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to receive your complimentary fate

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magazine call now at one eight hundred

2792
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seven two eight two seven three oh or

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visit their website at WWF at medCom

2794
01:56:37,000 --> 01:56:34,550
that's one eight hundred seven two eight

2795
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two seven three zero what are you

2796
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waiting for your fate awaits I'm -

2797
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resources if you are going through a

2798
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financial rollercoaster because of your

2799
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investment in stocks bonds and other

2800
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paper assets

2801
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perhaps you're ready for a change you

2802
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have an opportunity to change your

2803
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financial security stability and peace

2804
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of mind you deserve by investing in

2805
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precious metals gold and silver have

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been a form of protection for over 5,000

2807
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years or over the

2808
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if you have seen your hard-earned money

2809
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lose value because of inflation sliding

2810
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door etc it's time you stopped the

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please the answer to your problems is

2812
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simple gold and silver will protect your

2813
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assets and your purchasing power

2814
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IRA rollover etc call me Roger roll at

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2817
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today when we are still accepting paper

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2819
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2876
01:59:57,220 --> 01:59:55,220
from you if you have a comment or

2877
02:00:01,510 --> 01:59:57,230
question about the pair cast send it to

2878
02:00:04,390 --> 02:00:01,520
News at Lapera cast com that's news at

2879
02:00:06,070 --> 02:00:04,400
Lapera cast calm and don't forget to

2880
02:00:10,150 --> 02:00:06,080
visit our famous pair of cast community

2881
02:00:12,820 --> 02:00:10,160
forums at forum dot the podcast comm get

2882
02:00:16,660 --> 02:00:12,830
in on all the action at forum dot the

2883
02:00:22,280 --> 02:00:19,550
we're asking your questions listeners

2884
02:00:25,640 --> 02:00:22,290
join the power cast forums forum power

2885
02:00:27,320 --> 02:00:25,650
cast calm and you'll have the chance to

2886
02:00:28,550 --> 02:00:27,330
ask questions someday by the way we

2887
02:00:30,200 --> 02:00:28,560
might actually take phone calls from

2888
02:00:32,899 --> 02:00:30,210
listeners I will tell you this it's

2889
02:00:35,689 --> 02:00:32,909
really tantalize you we have the power

2890
02:00:37,850 --> 02:00:35,699
James carry-ons our guest Chris O'Brien

2891
02:00:40,040 --> 02:00:37,860
has the power because he's asking those

2892
02:00:41,870 --> 02:00:40,050
questions I'm Jean Steinberg you're in

2893
02:00:44,510 --> 02:00:41,880
the power cast Chris would you continue

2894
02:00:46,839 --> 02:00:44,520
okay let's switch gears a little a

2895
02:00:49,729 --> 02:00:46,849
little bit here this is this is great

2896
02:00:52,669 --> 02:00:49,739
I'm glad this question wasn't asked of

2897
02:00:55,220 --> 02:00:52,679
me during your time at MUFON James did

2898
02:00:57,379 --> 02:00:55,230
you ever see anything that would support

2899
02:01:11,120 --> 02:00:57,389
the notion that we are being visited by

2900
02:01:13,580 --> 02:01:11,130
non-human intelligences wait a minute

2901
02:01:16,910 --> 02:01:13,590
wait a minute it's all gonna be aliens

2902
02:01:18,500 --> 02:01:16,920
right we're dealing with ETS coming you

2903
02:01:20,330 --> 02:01:18,510
know there's obviously millions of

2904
02:01:23,120 --> 02:01:20,340
civilizations out there in the

2905
02:01:25,339 --> 02:01:23,130
quadrillions of star systems you mean

2906
02:01:28,760 --> 02:01:25,349
we're not important enough for them to

2907
02:01:32,209 --> 02:01:28,770
come here and like visit us or we're

2908
02:01:34,729 --> 02:01:32,219
hybrid hybridization you know mate with

2909
02:01:37,100 --> 02:01:34,739
us the daughters of men or the daughters

2910
02:01:38,919 --> 02:01:37,110
of each side I'm sorry I must apologize

2911
02:01:41,839 --> 02:01:38,929
to our listeners I didn't mean to be so

2912
02:01:46,520 --> 02:01:41,849
blatantly crass on that way man Wayne he

2913
02:01:49,010 --> 02:01:46,530
has to get his head slap so James we

2914
02:01:50,780 --> 02:01:49,020
from what you've seen I mean you were

2915
02:01:53,450 --> 02:01:50,790
sitting in the driver's seat there what

2916
02:01:55,910 --> 02:01:53,460
for almost five years and you've been

2917
02:01:58,700 --> 02:01:55,920
involved in you know you're an

2918
02:02:01,160 --> 02:01:58,710
ex-military member I think you were an

2919
02:02:05,720 --> 02:02:01,170
analyst correct you speak fluent Russian

2920
02:02:09,740 --> 02:02:05,730
well if I remember correctly was a

2921
02:02:12,830 --> 02:02:09,750
signal intelligence analyst so I mean

2922
02:02:16,010 --> 02:02:12,840
we're not talking about a guy who you

2923
02:02:17,689 --> 02:02:16,020
know just has the average kind of skills

2924
02:02:19,700 --> 02:02:17,699
and training we're talking about

2925
02:02:21,020 --> 02:02:19,710
somebody that you know we should listen

2926
02:02:24,680 --> 02:02:21,030
to when it comes to matters of

2927
02:02:26,570 --> 02:02:24,690
intelligence agency programs and you

2928
02:02:29,240 --> 02:02:26,580
know I mean you have a little I think a

2929
02:02:30,350 --> 02:02:29,250
little bit more of a leg up on most

2930
02:02:32,419 --> 02:02:30,360
people when it come

2931
02:02:35,600 --> 02:02:32,429
to these questions but factoring all

2932
02:02:38,540 --> 02:02:35,610
that knowledge in training and plus your

2933
02:02:40,010 --> 02:02:38,550
tenure at MUFON if you haven't seen

2934
02:02:41,770 --> 02:02:40,020
anything that supports the notion that

2935
02:02:43,879 --> 02:02:41,780
we are being visited by non-human

2936
02:02:46,600 --> 02:02:43,889
intelligences what are we dealing with

2937
02:02:49,040 --> 02:02:46,610
well I think where we're dealing with

2938
02:02:52,340 --> 02:02:49,050
specifically with intelligence agencies

2939
02:02:54,709 --> 02:02:52,350
who are interested in information

2940
02:02:57,410 --> 02:02:54,719
warfare and they're interested in

2941
02:02:59,660 --> 02:02:57,420
psychological manipulation and I think

2942
02:03:01,550 --> 02:02:59,670
actually the UFO field provides the

2943
02:03:04,490 --> 02:03:01,560
perfect training ground for their

2944
02:03:06,770 --> 02:03:04,500
operations a prime example is what I've

2945
02:03:08,810 --> 02:03:06,780
encountered in the last year or so being

2946
02:03:10,970 --> 02:03:08,820
a MUFON going up against some of these

2947
02:03:13,669 --> 02:03:10,980
message boards like the open minds forum

2948
02:03:16,010 --> 02:03:13,679
and above top-secret where the UFO

2949
02:03:18,350 --> 02:03:16,020
mythology is being pushed by a lot of

2950
02:03:19,640 --> 02:03:18,360
folks who have no real backgrounds a lot

2951
02:03:21,680 --> 02:03:19,650
of folks would just anonymous

2952
02:03:24,320 --> 02:03:21,690
individuals it can go up in whatever

2953
02:03:26,209 --> 02:03:24,330
claims they'd like and what I find

2954
02:03:27,680 --> 02:03:26,219
highly interesting is I've always

2955
02:03:29,750 --> 02:03:27,690
thought well what what is the goal of

2956
02:03:31,550 --> 02:03:29,760
this and I think I sort of sort of

2957
02:03:33,169 --> 02:03:31,560
figured out that where the proving

2958
02:03:35,090 --> 02:03:33,179
ground for information warfare

2959
02:03:36,919 --> 02:03:35,100
techniques to be used in the wild and in

2960
02:03:38,720 --> 02:03:36,929
the wider world for example I wrote a

2961
02:03:40,310 --> 02:03:38,730
blog article about WikiLeaks and how I

2962
02:03:41,629 --> 02:03:40,320
don't believe WikiLeaks is what it

2963
02:03:43,850 --> 02:03:41,639
pretends to be I think there's an

2964
02:03:45,290 --> 02:03:43,860
intelligence agency behind that and that

2965
02:03:47,390 --> 02:03:45,300
it's trying to break build credibility

2966
02:03:50,090 --> 02:03:47,400
and can use it as a conduit for this

2967
02:03:52,399 --> 02:03:50,100
information and as a way to influence

2968
02:03:55,430 --> 02:03:52,409
governments and I think that had it

2969
02:03:59,330 --> 02:03:55,440
start Wow well you're not alone there

2970
02:04:02,180 --> 02:03:59,340
Julian Assange has been called out by

2971
02:04:04,700 --> 02:04:02,190
some and and I think there is some

2972
02:04:08,530 --> 02:04:04,710
question about the the real underlying

2973
02:04:11,419 --> 02:04:08,540
agenda behind WikiLeaks but again let's

2974
02:04:14,060 --> 02:04:11,429
go ahead and shift gears here a little

2975
02:04:16,300 --> 02:04:14,070
bit what is your opinions regarding the

2976
02:04:18,439 --> 02:04:16,310
quality of the work performed by field

2977
02:04:21,500 --> 02:04:18,449
investigators and of the Star team I

2978
02:04:23,300 --> 02:04:21,510
mean how well did these people function

2979
02:04:26,149 --> 02:04:23,310
out in the field this is from Ron

2980
02:04:30,169 --> 02:04:26,159
Collins one of our moderators well I

2981
02:04:31,399 --> 02:04:30,179
think that it's sort of it's a hit and

2982
02:04:34,129 --> 02:04:31,409
miss there were a lot of Star team

2983
02:04:36,700 --> 02:04:34,139
members the the question is was there a

2984
02:04:40,300 --> 02:04:36,710
common level of education and

2985
02:04:43,870 --> 02:04:40,310
common level of investigation standards

2986
02:04:45,610 --> 02:04:43,880
or even know how these people selected

2987
02:04:48,940 --> 02:04:45,620
well they were say there was an

2988
02:04:50,740 --> 02:04:48,950
application process they obviously had

2989
02:04:53,290 --> 02:04:50,750
to be current MUFON field investigators

2990
02:04:56,290 --> 02:04:53,300
but we were also looking for folks that

2991
02:04:59,590 --> 02:04:56,300
had a background in aviation or

2992
02:05:02,260 --> 02:04:59,600
backgrounds in science but it's sort of

2993
02:05:04,690 --> 02:05:02,270
you know how do you actually certify a

2994
02:05:06,220 --> 02:05:04,700
professional UFO investigators I mean

2995
02:05:07,060 --> 02:05:06,230
there's there's no formal process for

2996
02:05:09,130 --> 02:05:07,070
doing that

2997
02:05:13,090 --> 02:05:09,140
even though Funzone certification

2998
02:05:17,140 --> 02:05:13,100
process is it's just sort of an entry

2999
02:05:19,990 --> 02:05:17,150
level education so you know the bottom

3000
02:05:21,790 --> 02:05:20,000
line is that it's hard to to apply

3001
02:05:24,370 --> 02:05:21,800
standards across the board to how

3002
02:05:27,280 --> 02:05:24,380
investigations done well that leads me

3003
02:05:29,740 --> 02:05:27,290
to another question and this is from

3004
02:05:31,959 --> 02:05:29,750
Andrew Rhodes James having been the

3005
02:05:34,440 --> 02:05:31,969
international director of MUFON and now

3006
02:05:37,780 --> 02:05:34,450
being disenchanted with the organization

3007
02:05:40,840 --> 02:05:37,790
where would you advise both current and

3008
02:05:42,850 --> 02:05:40,850
former members of MUFON to go to you

3009
02:05:44,890 --> 02:05:42,860
know conduct scientific investigation of

3010
02:05:48,220 --> 02:05:44,900
this phenomenon I mean it sounds like

3011
02:05:51,250 --> 02:05:48,230
MUFON is really in in a state of you

3012
02:05:53,260 --> 02:05:51,260
know needed catharsis right now where do

3013
02:05:54,850 --> 02:05:53,270
people who really are dedicated and are

3014
02:05:57,280 --> 02:05:54,860
willing to spend the time effort and

3015
02:05:59,770 --> 02:05:57,290
money going out doing the work in the

3016
02:06:01,740 --> 02:05:59,780
field where should they go well I'm not

3017
02:06:05,200 --> 02:06:01,750
I'm not advocating that anybody

3018
02:06:07,060 --> 02:06:05,210
abandoned ship I think that there has to

3019
02:06:09,340 --> 02:06:07,070
be reformed within MUFON and if there's

3020
02:06:11,410 --> 02:06:09,350
their current MUFON members that are

3021
02:06:12,760 --> 02:06:11,420
just a disenchanted or they're worried

3022
02:06:13,600 --> 02:06:12,770
about the organization and where it's

3023
02:06:15,640 --> 02:06:13,610
headed

3024
02:06:17,860 --> 02:06:15,650
they need to they need inundate the

3025
02:06:20,500 --> 02:06:17,870
MUFON board with what their opinions and

3026
02:06:21,910 --> 02:06:20,510
their views because right now the board

3027
02:06:24,970 --> 02:06:21,920
is operating within their own little

3028
02:06:26,290 --> 02:06:24,980
glass ceiling where they're listening to

3029
02:06:28,930 --> 02:06:26,300
each other but they're not listening to

3030
02:06:31,150 --> 02:06:28,940
the wider membership I in terms of where

3031
02:06:33,580 --> 02:06:31,160
the organization should be headed gonna

3032
02:06:37,270 --> 02:06:33,590
ask you a fast question James if the UFO

3033
02:06:39,150 --> 02:06:37,280
mystery is largely a concoction of

3034
02:06:42,010 --> 02:06:39,160
intelligence agencies or disinformation

3035
02:06:44,590 --> 02:06:42,020
why do we even bother investigating it

3036
02:06:47,530 --> 02:06:44,600
maybe we should just give it all up well

3037
02:06:50,259 --> 02:06:47,540
it's that's that's a very good point so

3038
02:06:52,629 --> 02:06:50,269
that's why I decided to lead

3039
02:06:54,250 --> 02:06:52,639
and actually pursue my own research

3040
02:06:57,160 --> 02:06:54,260
along the lines of this grand deception

3041
02:06:58,239 --> 02:06:57,170
theory because I think that where I can

3042
02:07:00,009 --> 02:06:58,249
do the most good

3043
02:07:01,720 --> 02:07:00,019
and the most damage to these

3044
02:07:03,879 --> 02:07:01,730
intelligence agencies is a show the

3045
02:07:06,370 --> 02:07:03,889
pattern and deceit it's been in place

3046
02:07:09,000 --> 02:07:06,380
for the last 60 years and if I can

3047
02:07:12,489 --> 02:07:09,010
convince folks that this is this is a

3048
02:07:14,979 --> 02:07:12,499
plausible explanation for this field

3049
02:07:18,069 --> 02:07:14,989
then I think I've done a greater service

3050
02:07:22,109 --> 02:07:18,079
to youth ology than any investigator

3051
02:07:25,029 --> 02:07:22,119
else any investigation of all Case Files

3052
02:07:27,549 --> 02:07:25,039
you want to burn off the dross you're

3053
02:07:30,549 --> 02:07:27,559
not suggesting that this you're not

3054
02:07:32,200 --> 02:07:30,559
proposing a one-size-fits-all answer for

3055
02:07:34,810 --> 02:07:32,210
something that's very ancient and very

3056
02:07:38,649 --> 02:07:34,820
real at its core I mean do you believe

3057
02:07:40,720 --> 02:07:38,659
that there is any validity to the actual

3058
02:07:43,870 --> 02:07:40,730
core truth or reality of the UFO

3059
02:07:45,939 --> 02:07:43,880
phenomenon I mean let's burn off all the

3060
02:07:47,259 --> 02:07:45,949
peripheral elements that might be

3061
02:07:51,339 --> 02:07:47,269
involved whether it's intelligence

3062
02:07:53,560 --> 02:07:51,349
agencies misidentified this untrained

3063
02:07:55,410 --> 02:07:53,570
observers is there something at the core

3064
02:07:57,549 --> 02:07:55,420
of this phenomenon that even deserves

3065
02:08:00,040 --> 02:07:57,559
investigation and you'll get that answer

3066
02:08:02,890 --> 02:08:00,050
in a moment from James carrion first off

3067
02:08:04,839 --> 02:08:02,900
let me ask you to join our forums yes if

3068
02:08:06,669 --> 02:08:04,849
you join the power cast forums you can

3069
02:08:08,919 --> 02:08:06,679
ask questions to the guests we announce

3070
02:08:11,229 --> 02:08:08,929
our shows at least a few days in advance

3071
02:08:13,089 --> 02:08:11,239
before we do the recording so you can

3072
02:08:16,000 --> 02:08:13,099
get in on the action to join the power

3073
02:08:18,339 --> 02:08:16,010
cast forums go to forum power cast calm

3074
02:08:20,979 --> 02:08:18,349
once again that's forum dot para cast

3075
02:08:23,169 --> 02:08:20,989
calm it takes just a couple of minutes

3076
02:08:25,479 --> 02:08:23,179
to join up and then you'll be ready to

3077
02:08:28,120 --> 02:08:25,489
get in on the action Chris O'Brien's the

3078
02:08:36,070 --> 02:08:28,130
co-host I'm gene Steinberg you're in the

3079
02:08:36,080 --> 02:08:39,850
[Music]

3080
02:08:46,040 --> 02:08:43,880
is there a secret UFO agenda to strange

3081
02:08:48,530 --> 02:08:46,050
creatures from the darkest corners of

3082
02:08:51,370 --> 02:08:48,540
the mind roam the earth is there

3083
02:08:55,040 --> 02:08:51,380
evidence for mind control time travel or

3084
02:08:56,660 --> 02:08:55,050
devious government conspiracies find out

3085
02:08:59,690 --> 02:08:56,670
the inside scoop on the latest

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conspiracies Paranormal Activity and at

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40 in phenomenon when you subscribe to

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3092
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3093
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3094
02:09:25,450 --> 02:09:21,150
simply send an email with your name and

3095
02:09:30,980 --> 02:09:25,460
address to Mister UFO at WebTV dotnet

3096
02:09:37,760 --> 02:09:30,990
that's mr. UFO at web TV dotnet find out

3097
02:09:40,890 --> 02:09:38,990
[Music]

3098
02:09:42,660 --> 02:09:40,900
we all know that berkey water

3099
02:09:44,790 --> 02:09:42,670
purification systems are the most

3100
02:09:46,500 --> 02:09:44,800
trusted name in water filtration as an

3101
02:09:48,300 --> 02:09:46,510
authorized Berkey dealer for over five

3102
02:09:49,260 --> 02:09:48,310
years and serving thousands of satisfied

3103
02:09:51,390 --> 02:09:49,270
customers

3104
02:09:53,520 --> 02:09:51,400
the Berkey guy offers amazing specials

3105
02:09:55,200 --> 02:09:53,530
for berkey water filtration systems the

3106
02:09:57,120 --> 02:09:55,210
Berkey light systems include a set of

3107
02:09:59,100 --> 02:09:57,130
self-sterilizing INRI cleanable black

3108
02:10:01,410 --> 02:09:59,110
purification elements that purify water

3109
02:10:03,570 --> 02:10:01,420
by removing chlorine pathogenic bacteria

3110
02:10:05,700 --> 02:10:03,580
cysts and parasites to non detectable

3111
02:10:07,979 --> 02:10:05,710
levels and remove harmful chemicals such

3112
02:10:09,870 --> 02:10:07,989
as herbicides and pesticides order the

3113
02:10:12,390 --> 02:10:09,880
Berkey light system today complete with

3114
02:10:14,280 --> 02:10:12,400
two black per key elements for only 209

3115
02:10:16,500 --> 02:10:14,290
dollars and the burka guide will include

3116
02:10:18,660 --> 02:10:16,510
three sport murky water bottles and ship

3117
02:10:20,790 --> 02:10:18,670
everything to you free of charge that's

3118
02:10:22,919 --> 02:10:20,800
right three-sport berkey water bottles

3119
02:10:25,350 --> 02:10:22,929
and free shipping an eighty seven dollar

3120
02:10:27,120 --> 02:10:25,360
value yours free called the Berkey guy

3121
02:10:29,700 --> 02:10:27,130
at one eight seventy seven eight eight

3122
02:10:32,010 --> 02:10:29,710
six three six five three that's one

3123
02:10:34,919 --> 02:10:32,020
eight seven seven eight eight six three

3124
02:10:38,359 --> 02:10:34,929
six five three or order online at Gober

3125
02:10:40,620 --> 02:10:38,369
Keep Calm let's go Berkey calm today

3126
02:10:41,970 --> 02:10:40,630
there's mounting evidence suggesting

3127
02:10:43,560 --> 02:10:41,980
that there are people governments

3128
02:10:45,390 --> 02:10:43,570
corporations and whole professions

3129
02:10:47,939 --> 02:10:45,400
intent on short-circuiting humanity's

3130
02:10:49,890 --> 02:10:47,949
well being GMO food legislation

3131
02:10:51,780 --> 02:10:49,900
protecting big agriculture the attempted

3132
02:10:53,580 --> 02:10:51,790
elimination of vitamins and alternative

3133
02:10:55,709 --> 02:10:53,590
medicines it seems their hand has been

3134
02:10:58,350 --> 02:10:55,719
tipped they want to dictate your health

3135
02:11:00,570 --> 02:10:58,360
wealth and your longevity whatever the

3136
02:11:03,359 --> 02:11:00,580
outcome we have a solution wild edible

3137
02:11:05,129 --> 02:11:03,369
food why worry about food when all has

3138
02:11:06,450 --> 02:11:05,139
been provided we imagine that we were

3139
02:11:08,430 --> 02:11:06,460
ejected from the garden and never

3140
02:11:10,530 --> 02:11:08,440
invited back but the gardens still here

3141
02:11:12,359 --> 02:11:10,540
there is an endless wild abundance which

3142
02:11:13,800 --> 02:11:12,369
grows all over our green earth just

3143
02:11:16,560 --> 02:11:13,810
waiting for you to wake up and see it

3144
02:11:19,680 --> 02:11:16,570
let a Linda Runyon teach you how to see

3145
02:11:22,500 --> 02:11:19,690
no gap prepare store and eat wild edible

3146
02:11:24,149 --> 02:11:22,510
food save money add nutrition and ignore

3147
02:11:26,669 --> 02:11:24,159
the noise when you go shopping in

3148
02:11:28,229 --> 02:11:26,679
nature's supermarket go to of the field

3149
02:11:30,629 --> 02:11:28,239
comm and get started today

3150
02:11:33,720 --> 02:11:30,639
or call one eight eight eight fifty one

3151
02:11:35,399 --> 02:11:33,730
eat free that's of the field calm or

3152
02:11:38,189 --> 02:11:35,409
call one eight eight eight five one

3153
02:11:38,730 --> 02:11:38,199
eight free and begin to see a different

3154
02:11:43,160 --> 02:11:38,740
world

3155
02:11:47,850 --> 02:11:46,140
hi I'm dawn whisking and have you ever

3156
02:11:48,780 --> 02:11:47,860
wondered what the garlic cayenne drops

3157
02:11:51,270 --> 02:11:48,790
could do for you

3158
02:11:53,460 --> 02:11:51,280
February is Heart Month and we want you

3159
02:11:55,410 --> 02:11:53,470
to find out just what can happen when

3160
02:11:57,180 --> 02:11:55,420
you take the right combination of herbs

3161
02:12:00,090 --> 02:11:57,190
designed to maintain our cardiovascular

3162
02:12:02,550 --> 02:12:00,100
health purchase a four month supply of

3163
02:12:04,800 --> 02:12:02,560
extend of eye drops or capsules plus get

3164
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a bonus month supply of capsules for

3165
02:12:08,610 --> 02:12:06,670
only a hundred and twenty-five dollars

3166
02:12:11,670 --> 02:12:08,620
plus shipping that's five months worth

3167
02:12:13,950 --> 02:12:11,680
of extender fight for $25 per month this

3168
02:12:15,630 --> 02:12:13,960
is a harp month special to help get you

3169
02:12:18,960 --> 02:12:15,640
started on your path to better health

3170
02:12:21,420 --> 02:12:18,970
and ends February 28th so don't be left

3171
02:12:24,480 --> 02:12:21,430
out find out what extend of I can do for

3172
02:12:26,700 --> 02:12:24,490
you to order call one eight seven seven

3173
02:12:29,460 --> 02:12:26,710
nine two eight eight eight two two

3174
02:12:31,590 --> 02:12:29,470
that's one eight seven seven nine two

3175
02:12:33,480 --> 02:12:31,600
eight eight eight two two or visit our

3176
02:12:38,880 --> 02:12:33,490
website at heart drop calm

3177
02:12:44,500 --> 02:12:41,100
America's number one source for

3178
02:13:05,560 --> 02:12:44,510
independent talk radio for over a decade

3179
02:13:07,960 --> 02:13:05,570
we are the gcn radio network James

3180
02:13:09,910 --> 02:13:07,970
carrion is ready to answer the question

3181
02:13:12,760 --> 02:13:09,920
about what the core of the UFO mystery

3182
02:13:15,130 --> 02:13:12,770
might be if not just military

3183
02:13:17,170 --> 02:13:15,140
disinformation Chris O'Brien's the

3184
02:13:20,050 --> 02:13:17,180
co-hosts I'm Jean Steinberg you're in

3185
02:13:21,880 --> 02:13:20,060
the para cast so there you go what do

3186
02:13:25,030 --> 02:13:21,890
you have to say James oh I think that

3187
02:13:28,270 --> 02:13:25,040
Chris Carter of the x-files got a write

3188
02:13:31,000 --> 02:13:28,280
one of his episodes where this couple

3189
02:13:33,070 --> 02:13:31,010
was driving down a country road all of a

3190
02:13:34,810 --> 02:13:33,080
sudden this triangular craft came out of

3191
02:13:36,460 --> 02:13:34,820
nowhere and these little grey aliens

3192
02:13:40,360 --> 02:13:36,470
came out and they abducted the couple

3193
02:13:41,920 --> 02:13:40,370
and then in the next scene a larger

3194
02:13:44,320 --> 02:13:41,930
craft came down with a different Amy

3195
02:13:47,050 --> 02:13:44,330
alien abducted the graves and the humans

3196
02:13:48,640 --> 02:13:47,060
and when everybody was on board these

3197
02:13:51,460 --> 02:13:48,650
little gray aliens turn out to be Air

3198
02:13:52,210 --> 02:13:51,470
Force people in disguise who are those

3199
02:13:56,950 --> 02:13:52,220
guys

3200
02:13:58,450 --> 02:13:56,960
exactly who was that masked man just

3201
02:14:01,080 --> 02:13:58,460
brought that up in our last interview

3202
02:14:03,400 --> 02:14:01,090
right Jane with David Halpern I think

3203
02:14:06,250 --> 02:14:03,410
that's one of my favorite all-time

3204
02:14:10,780 --> 02:14:06,260
scenes from a TV show absolutely I think

3205
02:14:12,220 --> 02:14:10,790
that in a nutshell is the UFO because so

3206
02:14:13,990 --> 02:14:12,230
there is something that we should be

3207
02:14:17,080 --> 02:14:14,000
investigating is what you're saying it's

3208
02:14:18,580 --> 02:14:17,090
not all intelligence agencies and hidden

3209
02:14:21,010 --> 02:14:18,590
secret black-budget

3210
02:14:23,500 --> 02:14:21,020
technology we are dealing with something

3211
02:14:25,510 --> 02:14:23,510
there I think there there probably is a

3212
02:14:27,070 --> 02:14:25,520
phenomena of some sort the problem is

3213
02:14:28,210 --> 02:14:27,080
how many layers of the onion do you have

3214
02:14:31,180 --> 02:14:28,220
to peel to get to it

3215
02:14:34,810 --> 02:14:31,190
and in other words how much how deep

3216
02:14:37,810 --> 02:14:34,820
does the intelligence cloak over ufology

3217
02:14:39,520 --> 02:14:37,820
go rub and what the other question that

3218
02:14:41,500 --> 02:14:39,530
follows then is if there is a core

3219
02:14:43,060 --> 02:14:41,510
mystery something we don't understand

3220
02:14:46,240 --> 02:14:43,070
don't know whether it's et or whatever

3221
02:14:47,830 --> 02:14:46,250
it is is the government also involved in

3222
02:14:50,890 --> 02:14:47,840
keeping that a secret is that why

3223
02:14:52,990 --> 02:14:50,900
they're stuffing the channels with all

3224
02:14:55,150 --> 02:14:53,000
this junk is that one reason well I

3225
02:14:58,480 --> 02:14:55,160
think I think it's a possibility but I

3226
02:15:01,030 --> 02:14:58,490
think that something the core phenomena

3227
02:15:02,890 --> 02:15:01,040
is probably in the same Rob was try to

3228
02:15:05,470 --> 02:15:02,900
understand human consciousness or life

3229
02:15:07,630 --> 02:15:05,480
after death or the things that are seem

3230
02:15:10,030 --> 02:15:07,640
to be right beyond our reach right now

3231
02:15:13,020 --> 02:15:10,040
so if there is a core phenomena I don't

3232
02:15:15,390 --> 02:15:13,030
think the powers that be have

3233
02:15:17,550 --> 02:15:15,400
greater understanding of us greater I'm

3234
02:15:19,050 --> 02:15:17,560
saying it at them the layman layperson

3235
02:15:21,330 --> 02:15:19,060
does so I think they're sort of just

3236
02:15:23,850 --> 02:15:21,340
using it as cover conveniently as cover

3237
02:15:26,070 --> 02:15:23,860
and whether they are also investigating

3238
02:15:28,170 --> 02:15:26,080
it I like let's work out it so the only

3239
02:15:30,390 --> 02:15:28,180
disclosure that can be then is that they

3240
02:15:31,920 --> 02:15:30,400
have been playing a big game but then

3241
02:15:34,200 --> 02:15:31,930
does that also mean all these other

3242
02:15:35,760 --> 02:15:34,210
great conspiracies has something

3243
02:15:38,460 --> 02:15:35,770
involved there too we think you know

3244
02:15:39,990 --> 02:15:38,470
what about the Kennedy assassination all

3245
02:15:44,400 --> 02:15:40,000
that stuff we have to think that one of

3246
02:15:49,530 --> 02:15:44,410
the figures in the Mauri Island incident

3247
02:15:56,130 --> 02:15:49,540
Frey yeah he you know was supposedly one

3248
02:15:58,560 --> 02:15:56,140
of the hobos photographs I'm not sure

3249
02:16:01,080 --> 02:15:58,570
about that but it is an interesting it

3250
02:16:03,570 --> 02:16:01,090
would be more than coincidental well I

3251
02:16:06,150 --> 02:16:03,580
think I think where our research needs

3252
02:16:07,740 --> 02:16:06,160
to be done along those lines is if we

3253
02:16:09,210 --> 02:16:07,750
just look historically what happened

3254
02:16:13,320 --> 02:16:09,220
within the intelligence agencies around

3255
02:16:15,810 --> 02:16:13,330
that time the OSS had been disbanded the

3256
02:16:18,030 --> 02:16:15,820
great wartime organization and I think

3257
02:16:20,400 --> 02:16:18,040
it was somewhere on 90% of the personnel

3258
02:16:22,080 --> 02:16:20,410
of the long to the OSS ended up under

3259
02:16:23,480 --> 02:16:22,090
the Central Intelligence Group the

3260
02:16:26,190 --> 02:16:23,490
predecessor to the CIA

3261
02:16:28,260 --> 02:16:26,200
and under the command of Lloyd

3262
02:16:30,060 --> 02:16:28,270
Vandenberg so and this was around the

3263
02:16:32,550 --> 02:16:30,070
same time frame as this grand deception

3264
02:16:34,650 --> 02:16:32,560
operation and what I'm talking about so

3265
02:16:37,230 --> 02:16:34,660
you had a lot of unemployed very good

3266
02:16:39,770 --> 02:16:37,240
people skilled that deception and

3267
02:16:42,750 --> 02:16:39,780
intelligence operations who fit very

3268
02:16:44,970 --> 02:16:42,760
very well been plugged in to Maury

3269
02:16:48,600 --> 02:16:44,980
island into Kenneth Arnold sighting into

3270
02:16:50,820 --> 02:16:48,610
Roswell a lot of people that were

3271
02:16:52,530 --> 02:16:50,830
actually out of work and very eager to

3272
02:16:54,300 --> 02:16:52,540
do their job okay but of course the

3273
02:16:56,520 --> 02:16:54,310
other question people ask about that is

3274
02:16:59,550 --> 02:16:56,530
okay what about the core UFO sayings you

3275
02:17:02,400 --> 02:16:59,560
have the simultaneous radar visual cases

3276
02:17:04,530 --> 02:17:02,410
are they all just military craft or fake

3277
02:17:06,900 --> 02:17:04,540
radar images that was one of the things

3278
02:17:11,240 --> 02:17:06,910
mentioned in the book by the gentleman

3279
02:17:15,270 --> 02:17:11,250
who wrote mirages men mr. Pilkington

3280
02:17:19,310 --> 02:17:15,280
military observers and so the question

3281
02:17:22,050 --> 02:17:19,320
is were the real sightings or were these

3282
02:17:25,580 --> 02:17:22,060
fabricated tales we got more questions

3283
02:17:29,750 --> 02:17:25,590
in the till there I do actually

3284
02:17:31,550 --> 02:17:29,760
see we now have the saddle of course is

3285
02:17:34,160 --> 02:17:31,560
moving as he looks over the questions

3286
02:17:36,620 --> 02:17:34,170
and he tries to find ones that have not

3287
02:17:40,100 --> 02:17:36,630
already been answered well I think this

3288
02:17:44,590 --> 02:17:40,110
is kind of a sub thread but it has to do

3289
02:17:47,330 --> 02:17:44,600
with big low needs and the alleged

3290
02:17:50,420 --> 02:17:47,340
skinwalker ranch up in you in a basin

3291
02:17:54,710 --> 02:17:50,430
south of Fort Dechaine James you've come

3292
02:17:56,480 --> 02:17:54,720
out rather vocally claiming based on

3293
02:17:58,880 --> 02:17:56,490
your research that you feel that there's

3294
02:18:02,540 --> 02:17:58,890
really nothing to the Terri Sherman

3295
02:18:06,350 --> 02:18:02,550
ranch case that the I think you talked

3296
02:18:08,750 --> 02:18:06,360
to a brother of Sherman or a prior owner

3297
02:18:11,300 --> 02:18:08,760
I believe I'm not sure once you lead us

3298
02:18:14,210 --> 02:18:11,310
through the investigative process and

3299
02:18:16,190 --> 02:18:14,220
research process that you've under taken

3300
02:18:18,050 --> 02:18:16,200
about the skinwalker ranch well I've

3301
02:18:23,540 --> 02:18:18,060
always been a big fan of Frank Salsbury

3302
02:18:25,850 --> 02:18:23,550
who wrote the utah UFO display and so

3303
02:18:27,770 --> 02:18:25,860
what happened was that Frank invited me

3304
02:18:31,580 --> 02:18:27,780
out to Utah because he was updating his

3305
02:18:35,840 --> 02:18:31,590
book so together we travel to that part

3306
02:18:38,450 --> 02:18:35,850
of of Utah then for the ranches at and I

3307
02:18:40,820 --> 02:18:38,460
actually called up colum Kelleher of

3308
02:18:42,110 --> 02:18:40,830
bass and said hey we're out here we

3309
02:18:45,530 --> 02:18:42,120
would love to get access to the ranch

3310
02:18:47,590 --> 02:18:45,540
and we were confused and even prior to

3311
02:18:50,060 --> 02:18:47,600
that Frank Salisbury was refused access

3312
02:18:55,760 --> 02:18:50,070
so I'm not really sure why we're denied

3313
02:18:57,800 --> 02:18:55,770
access as bona fide investigators Frank

3314
02:18:59,720 --> 02:18:57,810
we had Frank on the show a couple of

3315
02:19:01,880 --> 02:18:59,730
months back I think was his first real

3316
02:19:03,980 --> 02:19:01,890
major internet bracha

3317
02:19:07,310 --> 02:19:03,990
maybe even radio interview in many years

3318
02:19:11,000 --> 02:19:07,320
and his you know I digress her a little

3319
02:19:13,820 --> 02:19:11,010
bit but his you off UFOs in the Utah UFO

3320
02:19:16,310 --> 02:19:13,830
display book has been republished and he

3321
02:19:18,260 --> 02:19:16,320
does have a an additional serving a

3322
02:19:19,760 --> 02:19:18,270
bridge section in the book that talks

3323
02:19:22,330 --> 02:19:19,770
about the ranch and he does quote you in

3324
02:19:24,500 --> 02:19:22,340
there yeah we together we did all those

3325
02:19:27,410 --> 02:19:24,510
interviews of witnesses around the ranch

3326
02:19:29,920 --> 02:19:27,420
and what I what I found intriguing and

3327
02:19:33,680 --> 02:19:29,930
this is why I mention a recent online

3328
02:19:34,910 --> 02:19:33,690
message board is that the stories we

3329
02:19:37,089 --> 02:19:34,920
were hearing from the neighbors around

3330
02:19:40,419 --> 02:19:37,099
the ranch were

3331
02:19:43,479 --> 02:19:40,429
we're not high strangeness cases we're

3332
02:19:45,280 --> 02:19:43,489
not high strangest observations like

3333
02:19:47,709 --> 02:19:45,290
we're docking in the book of closing

3334
02:19:49,960 --> 02:19:47,719
what was crammed on the ranch itself in

3335
02:19:51,760 --> 02:19:49,970
fact the most compelling case I heard

3336
02:19:55,410 --> 02:19:51,770
this was a historical case that happened

3337
02:19:58,000 --> 02:19:55,420
over here near the ranch and then Frank

3338
02:20:02,080 --> 02:19:58,010
was able to get in contact with the

3339
02:20:05,229 --> 02:20:02,090
former owners brother the owners had

3340
02:20:07,300 --> 02:20:05,239
passed away and the ranch was sold to

3341
02:20:12,399 --> 02:20:07,310
Sherman's eventually sold at the Bigelow

3342
02:20:15,790 --> 02:20:12,409
and the brother of huge owners was very

3343
02:20:18,370 --> 02:20:15,800
adamant that there was no strange

3344
02:20:20,410 --> 02:20:18,380
activity happen in the ranch prior to

3345
02:20:24,309 --> 02:20:20,420
the Sherman's buying it in fact he said

3346
02:20:25,899 --> 02:20:24,319
he's many many days and nights on that

3347
02:20:27,939 --> 02:20:25,909
ranch and never had him anything

3348
02:20:31,840 --> 02:20:27,949
happened out of the ordinary that was

3349
02:20:33,849 --> 02:20:31,850
strange so I found that to be just weird

3350
02:20:35,859 --> 02:20:33,859
that you know we have this book on for

3351
02:20:37,750 --> 02:20:35,869
the skinwalker that claims one thing and

3352
02:20:40,359 --> 02:20:37,760
the former ranch owners brother was

3353
02:20:43,359 --> 02:20:40,369
claiming something else the other thing

3354
02:20:46,689 --> 02:20:43,369
that I thought highly strained was the

3355
02:20:49,420 --> 02:20:46,699
story that was told to us by one of the

3356
02:20:53,019 --> 02:20:49,430
folks who worked on the ranch about

3357
02:20:55,090 --> 02:20:53,029
finding these these rods these metal

3358
02:20:56,679 --> 02:20:55,100
rods and after a UFO sighting and then

3359
02:20:58,719 --> 02:20:56,689
these rods were sent off to admit

3360
02:21:01,000 --> 02:20:58,729
scientists well they actually they were

3361
02:21:04,030 --> 02:21:01,010
found on a mutilated cow if I remember

3362
02:21:05,320 --> 02:21:04,040
correctly I'm not sure if it was it was

3363
02:21:06,849 --> 02:21:05,330
on the middle a cow or after his

3364
02:21:09,280 --> 02:21:06,859
sighting but I do know that he said they

3365
02:21:11,889 --> 02:21:09,290
were sent off for analysis and here we

3366
02:21:14,620 --> 02:21:11,899
have a mid scientist who came back and

3367
02:21:16,719 --> 02:21:14,630
said hey these are element 115 I know

3368
02:21:18,460 --> 02:21:16,729
that because I worked at area 51 where

3369
02:21:23,800 --> 02:21:18,470
we accumulated 300 pounds of this

3370
02:21:26,080 --> 02:21:23,810
material so here exactly here we have an

3371
02:21:29,109 --> 02:21:26,090
it scientist was basically repeating the

3372
02:21:31,809 --> 02:21:29,119
Bob Lazar story do you have a name to

3373
02:21:33,370 --> 02:21:31,819
attach that scientists to you know

3374
02:21:35,859 --> 02:21:33,380
actually I don't him I mentioned it to

3375
02:21:37,780 --> 02:21:35,869
John Schuessler he said he was going to

3376
02:21:39,189 --> 02:21:37,790
look into it further whenever get her

3377
02:21:40,540 --> 02:21:39,199
back from John whether he was able to

3378
02:21:43,059 --> 02:21:40,550
get a man without scientist because he

3379
02:21:44,889 --> 02:21:43,069
was familiar with the rods as he was a

3380
02:21:47,590 --> 02:21:44,899
consultant for better for kids at the

3381
02:21:50,469 --> 02:21:47,600
time and according to John that it was

3382
02:21:52,719 --> 02:21:50,479
definitely not element 115 it was

3383
02:21:56,170 --> 02:21:52,729
something that she would find and that

3384
02:21:58,590 --> 02:21:56,180
some sort of high-intensity lamp and it

3385
02:22:01,630 --> 02:21:58,600
was away a lot it would be very heavy

3386
02:22:04,480 --> 02:22:01,640
exactly and I think the bottom line was

3387
02:22:06,190 --> 02:22:04,490
that this person this person who I don't

3388
02:22:09,340 --> 02:22:06,200
really want to say his name but because

3389
02:22:10,480 --> 02:22:09,350
he asked us to keep his name

3390
02:22:12,070 --> 02:22:10,490
confidential he's still in a

3391
02:22:13,480 --> 02:22:12,080
non-disclosure as far as I know you're

3392
02:22:17,230 --> 02:22:13,490
talking about the former Ned's employee

3393
02:22:19,840 --> 02:22:17,240
yes okay we'll get into that in a moment

3394
02:22:22,300 --> 02:22:19,850
and all the ramifications I have one

3395
02:22:24,100 --> 02:22:22,310
devil's advocate question asked at the

3396
02:22:27,219 --> 02:22:24,110
beginning of our next and final section

3397
02:22:29,290 --> 02:22:27,229
james carrion joins us I'm Jean

3398
02:22:35,050 --> 02:22:29,300
Steinberg the co-host is Chris O'Brien

3399
02:22:35,060 --> 02:22:38,760
[Music]

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3483
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3484
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3486
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3487
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3489
02:26:01,560 --> 02:25:59,771
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3490
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3502
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great talk radio more important sir

3507
02:26:53,429 --> 02:26:48,160
soon overall we are the gcn radio

3508
02:26:54,929 --> 02:26:53,439
network you're in the bear guest

3509
02:27:00,100 --> 02:26:54,939
you never know what's going to happen

3510
02:27:04,761 --> 02:27:02,901
here's a special announcement next week

3511
02:27:07,611 --> 02:27:04,771
we're going to feature the astounding

3512
02:27:10,161 --> 02:27:07,621
fifth anniversary episode of the para

3513
02:27:12,201 --> 02:27:10,171
cast five years indeed our guests will

3514
02:27:14,480 --> 02:27:12,211
include our co-host Chris O'Brien a

3515
02:27:17,270 --> 02:27:14,490
returning for a special appearance Paul

3516
02:27:20,091 --> 02:27:17,280
Kimball and of course Greg Bishop next

3517
02:27:22,761 --> 02:27:20,101
week on the power cast James carry-ons

3518
02:27:24,980 --> 02:27:22,771
the guest the devil's advocate question

3519
02:27:27,291 --> 02:27:24,990
okay you've had military background

3520
02:27:30,111 --> 02:27:27,301
James you want to lead us in the

3521
02:27:31,821 --> 02:27:30,121
direction of military disinformation for

3522
02:27:34,850 --> 02:27:31,831
a lot of UFO mystery how do we know that

3523
02:27:50,241 --> 02:27:34,860
you are not a military disinformation

3524
02:27:53,480 --> 02:27:50,251
specialist Oh be nice gene well you know

3525
02:27:55,761 --> 02:27:53,490
the bottom line is those those out there

3526
02:27:57,951 --> 02:27:55,771
who are true believers and want to

3527
02:27:59,060 --> 02:27:57,961
believe that I'm muddy in the water well

3528
02:28:01,881 --> 02:27:59,070
they're gonna continue to believe that

3529
02:28:04,581 --> 02:28:01,891
all I know is that what my personal

3530
02:28:08,930 --> 02:28:04,591
research has shown is that this

3531
02:28:11,001 --> 02:28:08,940
phenomena is is being used and being

3532
02:28:13,970 --> 02:28:11,011
abused by elements within the

3533
02:28:15,560 --> 02:28:13,980
intelligence agencies and what they're

3534
02:28:18,770 --> 02:28:15,570
trying to cover up whether it's stealth

3535
02:28:21,591 --> 02:28:18,780
aircraft or a real extraterrestrial

3536
02:28:23,690 --> 02:28:21,601
visitation I can't tell you for sure all

3537
02:28:26,511 --> 02:28:23,700
I know is that the layers of deception

3538
02:28:28,940 --> 02:28:26,521
go very deep and I'm a truth seeker and

3539
02:28:31,671 --> 02:28:28,950
my goal is to peel away these layers and

3540
02:28:33,591 --> 02:28:31,681
get at the ultimate truth and the bottom

3541
02:28:34,940 --> 02:28:33,601
line is you know and by their fruit I

3542
02:28:37,600 --> 02:28:34,950
think anybody who's seen my research

3543
02:28:40,430 --> 02:28:37,610
who's heard me speak who's read my blog

3544
02:28:43,341 --> 02:28:40,440
know that I I'm a straight shooter I

3545
02:28:47,060 --> 02:28:43,351
don't have anything to hide and my goal

3546
02:28:49,611 --> 02:28:47,070
is to chip away at what was the secrecy

3547
02:28:52,551 --> 02:28:49,621
and expose whatever the core truth will

3548
02:28:54,890 --> 02:28:52,561
do well that's the motto of the parapets

3549
02:28:56,991 --> 02:28:54,900
that's called separating the signal from

3550
02:29:00,501 --> 02:28:57,001
the noise and that is the HERA caste

3551
02:29:03,140 --> 02:29:00,511
motto here and you know James personally

3552
02:29:05,600 --> 02:29:03,150
I applaud you for taking this brave step

3553
02:29:08,151 --> 02:29:05,610
forward and pointing at the Emperor's on

3554
02:29:10,430 --> 02:29:08,161
parade and saying hey look we really

3555
02:29:12,651 --> 02:29:10,440
need to get serious here and start

3556
02:29:13,301 --> 02:29:12,661
factoring out the noise before we could

3557
02:29:15,701 --> 02:29:13,311
ever hope

3558
02:29:18,940 --> 02:29:15,711
to get any sort of insight on the signal

3559
02:29:21,491 --> 02:29:18,950
and you know at least personally you

3560
02:29:23,261 --> 02:29:21,501
know I can't speak for gene or you know

3561
02:29:26,230 --> 02:29:23,271
all our listeners but personally you

3562
02:29:29,051 --> 02:29:26,240
know I I applaud you and I really

3563
02:29:31,631 --> 02:29:29,061
appreciate the courage that's taken to

3564
02:29:33,970 --> 02:29:31,641
really you know not only be the director

3565
02:29:37,541 --> 02:29:33,980
international director of MUFON and and

3566
02:29:40,720 --> 02:29:37,551
deal with this influx of influence from

3567
02:29:43,751 --> 02:29:40,730
third parties and and but coming out and

3568
02:29:46,511 --> 02:29:43,761
actually you know presenting cogently

3569
02:29:48,430 --> 02:29:46,521
your side of the story and and and then

3570
02:29:50,770 --> 02:29:48,440
addressing the issues that are raised by

3571
02:29:52,661 --> 02:29:50,780
this I I applaud you thank you I

3572
02:29:54,251 --> 02:29:52,671
appreciate vocals Chris anyone more

3573
02:29:57,100 --> 02:29:54,261
questions because we don't have many

3574
02:29:59,400 --> 02:29:57,110
more yeah I know we we can't get into

3575
02:30:03,251 --> 02:29:59,410
the whole big low-mids

3576
02:30:05,741 --> 02:30:03,261
thing and the ranch has other questions

3577
02:30:09,161 --> 02:30:05,751
relating to that you know I really think

3578
02:30:11,921 --> 02:30:09,171
that gosh we - I know the time really

3579
02:30:13,991 --> 02:30:11,931
went by faster I had a bunch of stuff I

3580
02:30:15,310 --> 02:30:14,001
wanted to bring up as well but James

3581
02:30:18,011 --> 02:30:15,320
we're gonna have to have you on for

3582
02:30:20,730 --> 02:30:18,021
another another girl round if you're if

3583
02:30:22,720 --> 02:30:20,740
you're into it because I think we're I

3584
02:30:25,421 --> 02:30:22,730
feel like we were just getting rolling

3585
02:30:26,970 --> 02:30:25,431
here I you know I'd really like to pick

3586
02:30:28,900 --> 02:30:26,980
your brain are you gonna be at the

3587
02:30:31,871 --> 02:30:28,910
international symposium are you gonna

3588
02:30:38,890 --> 02:30:31,881
crash the party down there the the

3589
02:30:43,360 --> 02:30:38,900
Congress rather right right the the open

3590
02:30:45,730 --> 02:30:43,370
minds acquisition it's almost like John

3591
02:30:47,531 --> 02:30:45,740
Rael is almost like Robert Bigelow is

3592
02:30:49,360 --> 02:30:47,541
little brother or something here we have

3593
02:30:53,711 --> 02:30:49,370
two competing private interests trying

3594
02:30:58,381 --> 02:30:53,721
to buy ufology it would appear did I say

3595
02:31:00,070 --> 02:30:58,391
that Oh gene smash hit me again gj1 -

3596
02:31:01,781 --> 02:31:00,080
yes I will

3597
02:31:04,720 --> 02:31:01,791
so are you gonna be down are you gonna

3598
02:31:06,820 --> 02:31:04,730
be down in in Phoenix here are you gonna

3599
02:31:09,511 --> 02:31:06,830
come down say hello

3600
02:31:12,041 --> 02:31:09,521
no actually I no plans go down to that

3601
02:31:14,320 --> 02:31:12,051
conference but I probably will crash the

3602
02:31:18,161 --> 02:31:14,330
MUFON one in California this is very

3603
02:31:20,680 --> 02:31:18,171
funny cool well I please pencil out

3604
02:31:22,001 --> 02:31:20,690
sometime I really would like to sit down

3605
02:31:26,051 --> 02:31:22,011
and talk with you at some point there

3606
02:31:27,131 --> 02:31:26,061
okay well do Chris pepper him with a few

3607
02:31:31,120 --> 02:31:27,141
more questions

3608
02:31:33,280 --> 02:31:31,130
well James you know where do we go from

3609
02:31:35,890 --> 02:31:33,290
here I mean we have a whole younger

3610
02:31:37,480 --> 02:31:35,900
generation that needs to become involved

3611
02:31:40,480 --> 02:31:37,490
in this field

3612
02:31:43,150 --> 02:31:40,490
the average age at your average UFO

3613
02:31:45,461 --> 02:31:43,160
conference is probably pushing 70 at

3614
02:31:46,961 --> 02:31:45,471
this point I mean what can we do to get

3615
02:31:49,961 --> 02:31:46,971
the young people involved in this whole

3616
02:31:55,240 --> 02:31:49,971
thing well that's always been an issue I

3617
02:31:57,640 --> 02:31:55,250
think with the Internet technology savvy

3618
02:32:00,280 --> 02:31:57,650
that they don't really see a need for

3619
02:32:02,110 --> 02:32:00,290
joining an organization or even going

3620
02:32:04,660 --> 02:32:02,120
accomplish this for that matter there's

3621
02:32:06,370 --> 02:32:04,670
such a so much information brought on

3622
02:32:08,470 --> 02:32:06,380
the Internet I think a lot of these

3623
02:32:11,171 --> 02:32:08,480
young people times a where they're out

3624
02:32:13,450 --> 02:32:11,181
and in surfing out on their smartphones

3625
02:32:15,671 --> 02:32:13,460
and well how do we organize them how do

3626
02:32:17,831 --> 02:32:15,681
we get them to be all pulling and you

3627
02:32:21,700 --> 02:32:17,841
know on their oars in the same direction

3628
02:32:23,980 --> 02:32:21,710
well the question is who's who's doing

3629
02:32:27,180 --> 02:32:23,990
the recruiting and for what reasons so

3630
02:32:31,091 --> 02:32:27,190
if you have an organization like move on

3631
02:32:32,501 --> 02:32:31,101
who's who I believe is changing away

3632
02:32:35,740 --> 02:32:32,511
from what they should be doing which is

3633
02:32:39,430 --> 02:32:35,750
true skepticism and they're on the other

3634
02:32:41,470 --> 02:32:39,440
extreme of true belief you you know

3635
02:32:47,171 --> 02:32:41,480
there's one person really feel pulled

3636
02:32:50,551 --> 02:32:47,181
toward that that's a good point

3637
02:32:54,671 --> 02:32:50,561
yeah and that's quite an indictment to

3638
02:32:56,140 --> 02:32:54,681
one that I share you know eivol many

3639
02:32:58,030 --> 02:32:56,150
people over the years of a school

3640
02:33:00,610 --> 02:32:58,040
why don't you remember MUFON and I say

3641
02:33:02,200 --> 02:33:00,620
no and I used the Groucho Marx line I

3642
02:33:04,751 --> 02:33:02,210
wouldn't be a member of any group that

3643
02:33:07,660 --> 02:33:04,761
would have me as one actually I have to

3644
02:33:09,671 --> 02:33:07,670
admit I do hold the MUFON membership but

3645
02:33:15,220 --> 02:33:09,681
mostly to get the newsletter want to

3646
02:33:16,870 --> 02:33:15,230
keep up with it oh man I just had to pop

3647
02:33:20,320 --> 02:33:16,880
that one out of the Hat there again I

3648
02:33:23,171 --> 02:33:20,330
was thinking about that myself of course

3649
02:33:25,301 --> 02:33:23,181
I see I maintained the membership in

3650
02:33:27,490 --> 02:33:25,311
nightcap even after Richard Hall told me

3651
02:33:29,171 --> 02:33:27,500
to leave that many years ago Chris a

3652
02:33:32,230 --> 02:33:29,181
couple of minutes left one more two more

3653
02:33:35,381 --> 02:33:32,240
questions well James I mean where are

3654
02:33:37,480 --> 02:33:35,391
you going from here what you know you've

3655
02:33:40,261 --> 02:33:37,490
been quite visible here in the past

3656
02:33:43,310 --> 02:33:40,271
couple three weeks I listen to

3657
02:33:46,650 --> 02:33:43,320
most of you Gerry Pippen appearance and

3658
02:33:48,810 --> 02:33:46,660
been following your blog where are you

3659
02:33:50,461 --> 02:33:48,820
going with this other than then you know

3660
02:33:52,530 --> 02:33:50,471
as you've stated you really want to dig

3661
02:33:54,841 --> 02:33:52,540
in and try to find the truth I mean what

3662
02:33:58,200 --> 02:33:54,851
is your public role here I mean are you

3663
02:34:02,360 --> 02:33:58,210
gonna be cheerleading some sort of you

3664
02:34:05,011 --> 02:34:02,370
know disclosure of true involvement by

3665
02:34:07,051 --> 02:34:05,021
the intelligence agencies and this is

3666
02:34:09,720 --> 02:34:07,061
there some way that we can expose put

3667
02:34:11,310 --> 02:34:09,730
the light of truth on on some of these

3668
02:34:14,310 --> 02:34:11,320
nefarious activities that have been

3669
02:34:17,341 --> 02:34:14,320
going on for decades I mean what do you

3670
02:34:21,240 --> 02:34:17,351
see your role is being in this honest I

3671
02:34:23,750 --> 02:34:21,250
think my role is mostly to expose the

3672
02:34:27,060 --> 02:34:23,760
patterns of activity that I see the

3673
02:34:30,290 --> 02:34:27,070
perception that's being perpetrated and

3674
02:34:33,150 --> 02:34:30,300
I sort of what I did during the whole

3675
02:34:34,890 --> 02:34:33,160
Kinross affair with the Great Lakes dive

3676
02:34:37,320 --> 02:34:34,900
company who put up their boys website

3677
02:34:41,220 --> 02:34:37,330
and they do excellent work by the way I

3678
02:34:43,230 --> 02:34:41,230
think the bottom line is is really to to

3679
02:34:46,560 --> 02:34:43,240
hit a mortgage which is what the truth

3680
02:34:48,870 --> 02:34:46,570
so you know I've been my job I think is

3681
02:34:51,450 --> 02:34:48,880
to is to expose not to call for any

3682
02:34:53,551 --> 02:34:51,460
grand disclosure I think that's that's a

3683
02:34:53,881 --> 02:34:53,561
politics folks at hijack that quite a

3684
02:35:08,820 --> 02:34:53,891
bit

3685
02:35:11,341 --> 02:35:08,830
well no pipe dream because all the other

3686
02:35:14,730 --> 02:35:11,351
countries give us tidbits to keep the

3687
02:35:17,881 --> 02:35:14,740
the you know the onus and the emphasis

3688
02:35:19,171 --> 02:35:17,891
off the u.s. sure so I think this this

3689
02:35:22,890 --> 02:35:19,181
whole promise of the squirrel did we

3690
02:35:24,660 --> 02:35:22,900
keep here at the Metropolitan is the you

3691
02:35:27,631 --> 02:35:24,670
know they're taking away the football

3692
02:35:31,140 --> 02:35:27,641
from Charlie Brown before he kicks it it

3693
02:35:32,070 --> 02:35:31,150
just ever happens and it's okay I think

3694
02:35:33,780 --> 02:35:32,080
they're always trying to keep us on the

3695
02:35:35,810 --> 02:35:33,790
edge of our seats with these promises

3696
02:35:38,580 --> 02:35:35,820
you disclose which I think my role is to

3697
02:35:40,640 --> 02:35:38,590
agitate and to expose and take the fight

3698
02:35:44,820 --> 02:35:40,650
to the intelligence agencies themselves

3699
02:35:46,620 --> 02:35:44,830
and so rather than have it have rather

3700
02:35:50,100 --> 02:35:46,630
than these intelligent a new semester on

3701
02:35:51,621 --> 02:35:50,110
gravity falls new rabbit holes is is

3702
02:35:53,600 --> 02:35:51,631
attacking them

3703
02:35:55,491 --> 02:35:53,610
on their own turf and I think that's

3704
02:35:56,841 --> 02:35:55,501
what I my goal was when I went to do

3705
02:36:01,551 --> 02:35:56,851
that research at the skinwalker ranch

3706
02:36:03,770 --> 02:36:01,561
and why I attend to or the fight I have

3707
02:36:06,110 --> 02:36:03,780
with the open minds forum it's so it's

3708
02:36:07,821 --> 02:36:06,120
taking the fight to them where do we

3709
02:36:10,451 --> 02:36:07,831
find more information about you James

3710
02:36:14,321 --> 02:36:10,461
carry on you have a blog my blog is

3711
02:36:17,241 --> 02:36:14,331
follow the magic Fred blog spot.com and

3712
02:36:19,940 --> 02:36:17,251
also you can catch up on all my latest

3713
02:36:22,610 --> 02:36:19,950
research on being Center for UFO truth

3714
02:36:24,470 --> 02:36:22,620
org Chris O'Brien where do we find more

3715
02:36:27,381 --> 02:36:24,480
of your stuff right here on the podcast

3716
02:36:30,440 --> 02:36:27,391
gene now I'm a card-carrying member of

3717
02:36:33,051 --> 02:36:30,450
the forum I'm an administrator James

3718
02:36:35,270 --> 02:36:33,061
another question that was asked is would

3719
02:36:37,520 --> 02:36:35,280
you be willing to post come to the forum

3720
02:36:41,001 --> 02:36:37,530
and answer some more detailed questions

3721
02:36:44,480 --> 02:36:41,011
a couple of people asked you invited you

3722
02:36:46,520 --> 02:36:44,490
to come on to the pair cast forum so it

3723
02:36:48,650 --> 02:36:46,530
would be a great opportunity for you to

3724
02:36:51,190 --> 02:36:48,660
get more in depth with some you know

3725
02:36:53,841 --> 02:36:51,200
really up-to-speed folks

3726
02:36:56,180 --> 02:36:53,851
James carry on thank you so much for

3727
02:36:57,860 --> 02:36:56,190
joining us this week on the power cast I

3728
02:37:02,819 --> 02:36:57,870
appreciate it thank you Dean thank you

3729
02:37:07,899 --> 02:37:05,500
yes is a copyrighted presentation of

3730
02:37:10,349 --> 02:37:07,909
making the impossible incorporated tune

3731
02:37:11,910 --> 02:37:10,359
in next week for a new adventure in

3732
02:37:18,530 --> 02:37:11,920
apparent cast